Jehovah deceives us

by opusdei1972 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • opusdei1972

    Paul said that God does not lie:

    in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)

    However, Jehovah God deceived his people:

    Then I said, "Ah, Lord GOD, surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, 'It shall be well with you'; whereas the sword has reached their very life." (Jer. 4:9-10)

    Jehovah said he can fool a prophet:

    “‘But if the prophet is fooled and gives a response, it is I, Jehovah, who have fooled that prophet.+ I will then stretch out my hand against him and annihilate him from my people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9)

    “Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.” (1 Kings 22:23)

    This is why The Governing Body is a gang of liars, because they worship Jehovah.

  • Moses Joe
    Moses Joe

    I feel I have to disagree with this point. The fact is that in the Bible God does not lie on any occasion. The situation in Jeremiah is no such occasion because the nation of Israel had long ago agreed to a covenant with God which they were habitually breaking. In that same chapter God, as he does many times in Jermiah, pleads for them to return to him and to stop doing the things they do; but, they do not. He did not decieve them at any point really, he laid down what he expected and they broke it, he simply followed through with his promise. It may be that Jeremiah was saying that even though things seem fine, in reality destruction was at their door, because God was seeing what they were doing all along - it hadn't gone ignored though it may seem so. The sword to the throat comment is an expression, demonstrating the reality of the danger they were in with their blatent behavior.

    As to the prophet being fooled, it isn't because God lied to him it's because God fooled him. God caused his falsehood to become apparent. That does not mean he lied, it means someone claimed to be a prophet and said, "such and such will happen" and God made sure it didn't - thus he was fooled. To be fooled does not necessarily mean tricked, it can mean "Made a fool of" and was it's original meaning. Any indication that it means trickery or deception is a recent developement in language compared to the age of scripture.

    As for the decieving spirit, it actually means something different from lying. What it means is that their counsel always proved worthless. These advisers were the kind of people who said, "We should do this because of this." They were supposed to be wise and give good advice as to what action to take in any given circumstance. The decieving spirit means, rather than that they lied, that their counsel always proved faulty. It'd be like if you had a stock broker who advised you to invest into a company that went belly up - he didn't lie to you, he gave you bad advice.

    I agree and believe the GB and JW can't be in any way the truth - but I still believe the Bible. In my opinion it'd be a mistake to direct any anger or resentment at God just because of people who come and say, "I am the Christ!' or 'Here he is!'" We were warned those people would come by Jesus himself in the gospels and he said, in no uncertain terms, "Do not follow them."

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    You can "prove" anything by jumping around willy-nilly.

    Look at the contemporary contexts of each passage, such as the culture, events, idioms, and so on, as well as the literary contexts of each, including tools such as chaistic structures.

    The Bible is not a flat board; it is not one book written by one person or group of people. It is religious history not a literal account.

    The Bible is not a flat chess board, in which the Knight can jump from a black square to a white one, ignoring all obstacles.

    If you want to prove they are liars, then do so, working from black and white factual evidence, not from a predetermined conclusion.

    BTW. There is al least one lie in Titus - it was not written by Paul.


  • justme67

    Good point Moses Joe. I agree that we cant let bad groups or organizations turn us away from God.

  • Dis-Member

    I agree that we cant let bad groups or organizations turn us away from God.

    I agree too.. the God of the Witnesses seems to manage that just fine by himself..

  • opusdei1972

    Doug Mason - The Bible is not a flat board; it is not one book written by one person or group of people.

    It is not a scholarly analysis. I am just playing with the rules of the witnesses. They believe the Bible is one book and was inspired by Jehovah.

  • opusdei1972

    Moses Joe - As for the decieving spirit, it actually means something different from lying. What it means is that their counsel always proved worthless.

    I think that the author understood "the deceiving spirit" as literal as the following "evil spirit":

    Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him. (1 Samuel 16:14)

    Clearly, it was a literal evil spirit.

  • prologos

    It is passages like these, and 'the opened tombs, and resuurected dead at Jesus' death that walked into Jerusalem'* that justifies the F&DS GB to publish all THEIR weird, unbelievable texts.

    * Math. 27:52

  • johnamos

    Moses Joe, your post is well said.

    One thing thou that it seems that many do not keep in mind is they think that because of all the lies the GB are responsible for and because of the way the JW’s follow them, that this is some how evidence that they are not God’s people or that it is just another false religion claiming to be the true one.

    The fact is that no matter whom out their claim to be God’s people and those whom he truly recognizing as being his people that these people are said to be being mislead and he has a problem with those that are doing the misleading and he as a problem with his people for allowing themselves to be misled because they didn’t care enough to make sure of all things to see if they were true or not. They feared man rather then God.

    But God will discipline his people and set them straight and punish those that have been misleading them. This will take place in the 42 months prior to Armageddon itself. He also is aware of those that are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done.

    4 And Jehovah went on to say to him: “Pass through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and you must put a mark on the foreheads of the men that are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done in the midst of it.”

    2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

    8 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “‘For the reason that YOU men have spoken untruth and YOU have visioned a lie, therefore here I am against YOU,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.” 9 And my hand has come to be against the prophets that are visioning untruth and that are divining a lie. In the intimate group of my people they will not continue on, and in the register of the house of Israel they will not be written, and to the soil of Israel they will not come; and YOU people will have to know that I am the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, 10 for the reason, yes, for the reason that they have led my people astray, saying, “There is peace!” when there is no peace, and there is one that is building a partition wall, but in vain there are those plastering it with whitewash.’

    3 And I must encamp on all sides against you, and I must lay siege to you with a palisade and raise up against you siegeworks. 4 And you must become low so that you will speak from the very earth, and as from the dust your saying will sound low. And like a spirit medium your voice must become even from the earth, and from the dust your own saying will chirp. 13 And Jehovah says: “For the reason that this people have come near with their mouth, and they have glorified me merely with their lips, and they have removed their heart itself far away from me, and their fear toward me becomes men’s commandment that is being taught, 14 therefore here I am, the One that will act wonderfully again with this people, in a wonderful manner and with something wonderful; and the wisdom of their wise men must perish, and the very understanding of their discreet men will conceal itself.” 15 Woe to those who are going very deep in concealing counsel from Jehovah himself, and whose deeds have occurred in a dark place, while they say: “Who is seeing us, and who is knowing of us?” 16 The perversity of YOU men!

    20 “Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her; 22 because these are days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and the ones suckling a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

    23 And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I did with them, and I kept concealing my face from them.’

    25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Now is when I shall bring back the captive ones of Jacob and actually have mercy upon all the house of Israel; and I will show exclusive devotion for my holy name. 26 And they will have borne their humiliation and all their unfaithfulness with which they have acted toward me, when they dwell on their soil in security, with no one to make [them] tremble. 27 When I bring them back from the peoples and I actually collect them together out of the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them before the eyes of many nations.’

    “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hosh´a·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.

  • punkofnice

    I am not a fan of god.

    GE 22:1-12,DT 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses.
    JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt).
    1CO 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations.
    JA 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one.

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