Early christians : Were they chosen ?, if so, what about those who were not?

by opusdei1972 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  opusdei1972

  It is a hard task to understand what Christ and early christians had in mind. But I noted that in the Gospels appears the word "elect" (greek eklektos). It seems that early christians thought that they were chosen by God. But if they thought that they were chosen, it means that not all people had the same opportunity to gain salvation. So, early christian thought they were in a vip club. For instance:

  if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (Col 1:23)

  Were not indians in the American Continent (Mexico, Peru, north america)?...what about chinese people ? So it seems that Paul thought that the END was very close and the earth was flat, in which only Europe, Asia and Africa existed. Note that only 1400 years later, american indians knew about Jesus and were forced to believe in the Catholic Faith. Furthermore, a later addition in Mark said:

  Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

  If I believe, this means that I choose to believe and not that I have been chosen. Worse, if I don't believe, I will be condemned. So, those american indians who rejected the Spanish Catholic priests who forced them with guns to believe in Jesus, will be condemned.

  On the other hand, suppose that Mark told us accurately what Christ said in chaper 13. So, we have this statement:

  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. (Mark 13:20)

  This statement makes sense only if you want to save the flesh of the elect on earth. However, Paul said that the elect will meet Jesus in the air and so they always be (2 Th. 4:17).

  For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (Mark 13:22)

  So, if the elect can be seduced by signs and wonders, why God permits false prophets to do those great miracles?

  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:27)

  I can hardly understand it. But may be it means that the elect will be taken from the earth to be led to heaven, but it contradicts verse 20.

  WHAT A MESS !!!
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  givemejustalittlemoretime

  The Prophecies were for the 1st century. The Gospel was originally for Natural Israel byt they rejected Messiah even though they knew from the scriptures he was coming. But this opened the way for us gentiles to become heirs of the promise. The electwerethe 1st centruy faithful ones who Messiah promised he would return for them and he did.It was a spiritual event.Just as all things are.Those 1st centruy one srule with him in heaven as kings and priests. The Holy SPirit never elft earth after pentecost itremains throughout the generations leading people to Christ.He dwells within ALL people though most do not recongise it yet. But Christ in you and everyone is is the mystery of the ages, he dwells in everyone. We all have the choice still when he reveals himself to each perosn whether to coem after him or not. You cannot find him in a church, God does not dwell in man made buildings or thingsmade of bricks and mortar, he dwells within you all.
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  designs

  Jews rejected Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah because he was not the messiah.
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  prologos

  it shoots down the wt doctrine that there were only "anointed" in the early congregations.

  The chosen ones , flesh to be saved inclused the earthly class

  to save their a---s.

  compare Isa 65: 21: " chosen ones will build houses, have children in the new earth.

  I do not believe a word of it any more, but it is an interesting critique to show the internal inconsistencies.
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  Apognophos

  I'm not sure I agree with much of your critique, opusdei1972. Although I don't see it as God's word, I think you're trying too hard to find problems here.

  Were not indians in the American Continent?

  Paul must have known about the Far Easterners, and he would have known that there were Africans below Ethiopia as well as Europeans to the west of Turkey and Greece. These areas had not been reached by the good news.

  So, although I'm not sure what he meant, it's not necessary to draw on groups like the Amerindians and the Aboriginals to disprove this point. Paul must either have been speaking only of the area of Israel, or else he had some alternate method in mind by which the gospel was being "proclaimed" in faraway places, which means that any group could have been reached, as far as Paul was concerned.

  So, those american indians who rejected the Spanish Catholic priests who forced them with guns to believe in Jesus, will be condemned.

  Jesus was not encouraging a violent conversion. He would have been the first to point out that believing something when forced to at gunpoint is not really believing something at all. Rather, in this long ending to Mark, Jesus is saying in vs. 15 to preach to all creation; in vs. 17, 18 Jesus is saying that the Christians should also perform miracles to prove that they speak the truth.

  Then, if someone chose not to believe this miracle-backed message, they would be condemned. So, yes, in reality the Amerindians of that time were not preached to (their descendants were, centuries later). But they could not have been condemned because they never had the opportunity to hear the good news and see those miracles in the first place. It was the preaching work which provided the means for judgment.

  Paul said that the elect will meet Jesus in the air.

  You've taken Mark 13:10 out of context. It's speaking about the (real) great tribulation, probably the encampment around Jerusalem by Rome in 66. Those are the days which needed to be cut short. Of course if a Christian died, it was believed they would go to heaven, but "meeting Jesus in the air" was a reference to being converted to spirit form when Jesus' second coming occurred. This would be performed on people who were still alive; they would be changed in 'the twinkling of an eye'. So Jesus is simply saying that the elect will not live long enough to see his return if the tribulation was not cut short. No contradiction here.

  But may be it means that the elect will be taken from the earth to be led to heaven, but it contradicts verse 20.

  It flows perfectly from verse 20. Do you really think that the writer of this account was so confused that he couldn't tell a coherent story across a single chapter? Follow the flow of the account. Jesus is saying there will be a terrible tribulation, and then it will be cut short, and then Jesus will return in the clouds (vs. 26) and gather up his chosen ones from the four corners of the earth.

  The term "four corners", by the way, simply means all extremities of the planet. The shape of the earth was already established as a sphere by the Greeks a few hundred years before Jesus lived, so this is highly unlikely to be a statement endorsing a Flat Earth.
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  Terry

  The TOPIC QUESTION can only be addressed rationally if we break it down into 2 competing magisteria.

  1. Reality: historical, psychological, political

  2. Mythos

  If we seek the answer by wallowing inside the magisterium of mythos there is no "there" there.
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  Apognophos

  My assertion is simply that even if we take the above verses as something mere men wrote, they are still consistent with each other and the existence of the First Peoples of the world (Aborigines, etc.) does not "break" the message. I just don't like to see shoddy Bible criticism. Insightful Bible criticism, on the other hand, I love.
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  Terry

  CHOSEN by whom?
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  Cold Steel

  The Greeks, of whom Paul was very fond, knew quite well that the earth was not flat. Paul also was very educated and fierce in his condemnation of the Christians (at least he was before his vision). Christianity was never intended to replace the House of Israel, he maintained, for he knew that at the conclusion of the great battle of Armageddon, the Jews would be converted (see Zechariah 12-14) when Jesus/Yahweh returned and his feet would stand on the Mount of Olives. The Jews, seeing the wounds in his hands/feet, would instantly realize his identity and go into a national state of mourning.

  The early Christian authorities also knew that this salvation would NOT come in the days of the Roman siege, but would occur after the destruction and dispersal of the Jews and after their return to the lands of their fathers in the future. This return is still in progress and the great battle of Armageddon (Gog and Magog) still in the future. There also are traditions recorded by Origen, who writes: "Clement, the disciple of the Apostles, recalls those whom the Greeks designate as antichthonians, (dwellers on the other side of the earth), and other parts of the earth's sphere (or circuit) which cannot be reached by anyone from our regions, and from which none of the inhabitants dwelling there is able to get to us."

  This is often how we know, or surmise, what was known and taught by the early saints -- we find out by what is passed on. Clement was a good friend and disciple of Peter, the chief apostle. In trying to find out everything that was known to them, the early church fathers felt they could preserve the church in as pure a form as possible. Thus, there's a wealth of information that tells us that the apostles did not expect the imminent return of Jesus, and that they didn't believe the earth was flat. They knew about the apostasy, the destruction of the temple and they understood it was to be rebuilt in the last days and that the Jews would ultimately accept Jesus Christ.