ObjectiveTruth (Has there ever been a less applicable screen name),
You represent all that I despise. Have you used any of your gray matter since leaving the Borg?
So...Assuming God exists, if he were on trial and you were the prosecutor, how would you present your case?
by androb31 56 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
objectivetruth
androb - I'll clarify what I meant, I didn't really say it right.
It's like the difference between Grave Sin, & Sin against the Holy Spirit. - Sin against the Holy Spirit, shows true Evil & complete acceptance of that Evil.. Thus stating that Goda statutes mean nothing to you, and you do not accept his sovereignity.
You can speak to God with Accusatory Words, just like you would a friend that you were upset with.. More important than what you say is your heart Condition.its important that you don't have a deep seated Hatred in your heart though.
If before praying you have already accused God in your heart that He does not exist, or that he is Evil and he doesn't care about you, this is when your Prayer may be ignored.. However if you have even a glimmer of Hope, what you say does not matter.. It is your Humble Attitude, that matters.
For a long time I had an addiction that I had trouble overcoming. After I succumbed to my addiction, i would not pray, because I knew that God would not hear me.. If I had prayed with this attitude, he would not have heard. But when I humbled my self and said, I'm going to trust that god is Greater then my heart.. This is when my prayers started to be answered.
Proverbs 3:34 " He mocks proud mockers but shows favor to the humble and oppressed."
Matthew 13:12 " For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."
James 4:6 " But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
An awesome example of this is seen in Job.. Even though, Yahweh was not the one that Took Jobs Family & Posessions away from him, Job thought that it was God who was testing him..
Job 1:20-22 " 20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.” 22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.
Job implied that God did all of this, but verse 22 shows that the words that Job uttered were not considered sinful by God.. The reason is that Job maintained Humility.
-
androb31
Objectivetruth:
Some People on this Thread are complaining that God kills innocent Children & 1'000s of people at a time.. Others complain that God allows suffering to exist.. I have to ask, which is it?
When God Kills someone, doesn't that end their Suffering? In reality shouldn't we all wish that God would Kill us?
I don't want god to kill me. I enjoy life in spite of the difficulties. If I choose to resume my faith in god and the bible though, I would believe in the concept of eternal punishment in hell as that is what I read the scriptures as saying. If I stop believing in the bible or god and let's say it's all true?? Let's say I end up in hell because I weighed the existing evidence for god and found it lacking, because he refuses to prove he exists or my faith wasn't strong enough, then that's someone I would prefer not to have anything to do with or worship for that matter.
Cofty:
I say that those children were blessed to be taken by Yahweh..
Disgusting!
I agree with Cofty. Objectivetruth, why bring them into existence in the first place being Omnicient and knowing ahead what they were being born into, that he would have to perform a mercy killing to take them out of something he brought them into in the first place?
The questions keep piling up.
-
objectivetruth
Cofty - Which would you rather?
1. Have your body subjected to all forms of Disgusting / Pagan pearling, cutting and Tearing.. To ultimately be Burned Alive, as a sacrifice to Satan. (All at the hands of your Parents)
2. Pass away in your sleep, withotub any Pain, Anguish or Suffering?
Was it Disgusting for God to Take Enoch's life when he was a mere 365 Years? (The Equivalent of 30 Years old now)
-
objectivetruth
- "I agree with Cofty. Objectivetruth, why bring them into existence in the first place being Omnicient and knowing ahead what they were being born into, that he would have to perform a mercy killing to take them out of something he brought them into in the first place?"
The issue is Many Ex-JW's maintain the Watchtower Teaching, that says once God Kills someone they are Dead Forever.
The True God resurrects all Humans, and gives them 1,000 years of life on an Earth that is ery different than the Earth that we now live on.
When God has killed people in the past, he is doing nothing more then taking years away from the Life that they have In this time period.
If everyone that Suffered now, knew %100 that they would be resurrected to a Paradise Earth, they would desire death and an end to their current suffering much more.
-
androb31
Objectivetruth:
The issue is Many Ex-JW's maintain the Watchtower Teaching, that says once God Kills someone they are Dead Forever.
That is not a belief that I myself had after leaving the WT. Not to get into a doctrinal debate because that's not the point of this thread. I personally adhered to a trinitarian, orthodox position, immortal soul teaching that the soul ends up in one of 2 places. Heaven or hell. Pre OT lives were judged by works or faith in the coming messiah which determined your eternal destinination, post OT judged by faith in Christ = life or no faith = eternal damnation, period.
Regardless though. Lets say all those children are given a resurrection, to earth or heaven or wherever.
If I were a parent and I were to stand by watching, observing, while a sadistic sociopath tortures, torments, hurts, one or all of my children while they scream and beg for my help but I decide rather than stop it as quickly as I can, I will wait to see how much they can take before they stop asking for my help or lose hope. Then at the last minute let's say I decide to step in and either take them out (kill them, mercy kill) or put an end to the suffering just prior to the point of no return. Does that make my lack of action all better now just because all the while they were suffering, I knew I had a master plan to kill them or buy them off with all kinds of nice things so they will forget about what happened to them because of my inaction?
Would a rational person think of me as a person fit to be a parent based on the above example?
The True God resurrects all Humans, and gives them 1,000 years of life on an Earth that is ery different than the Earth that we now live on.
That's your personal take on the scriptures.
-
objectivetruth
Understood and thanks for clarifying your views. I'm working on the contradictions, and I'll send at least one response this evening.
By the way.. One issue with the WT is that they require conformity in all Beliefs, this is very problematic to people's faith and overall understanding. I personally make sure to be very thorough with all research that I do for my faith, But I'm not never "stuck" to one Belief or Understanding.
When I research a topic, I try and prove my existing Understanding wrong first, and then if I cannot , I view it through the Bias of my current understanding.. as we have all seen, it is far too easy to believe something that fits your current comfort level and beliefs.. However only with a flexible attitude, can someone increase their faith and grow in Understanding.
The reason that I say this, is to let you know that it's not my goal to "prove" you wrong, rather it's my goal for both of us to arrive at the Correct Understanding, (As much as is possible)
Thanks Again : )
-
cofty
Objectivetruth - Many cultures practised child sacrifice. Archaeologists all over the world dig up post holes and discover tiny skeletons of babies that were killed as offerings to gods.
In our modern world there are cultures where children are treated horribly.
Unlike your imaginary deity we don't try to help those children by murdering them all.
I find it hard to discuss this topic without indulging in harsh personal attacks on people who try to defend infanticide.
This is why I am not only an atheist but an anti-theist. My contempt for your christian morality is total.
-
androb31
Objectivetruth:
I will look for your answers when I get back to an internet connection on tuesday. I will be away for my weekend so continue posting. I am not abandoning the thread lol. Have yourself a good couple of days
Same to all. I am enjoying the points and discussion on this thread. Thanks for the input and see ya'll in a few.
-
cofty
2. Pass away in your sleep, withotub any Pain, Anguish or Suffering?
According to your holy book "The Soldiers of Jah" murdered babies by the tens of thousand...
Scenario 1
You are camped on the east side of the Jordan waiting for orders to cross into the Promised Land. Moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to Joshua. He announces that he has had an instruction from God to take revenge on the Midianites before he dies.
The ensuing battle is a complete rout, not one Israelite soldier is killed in return for the complete annihilation of the Midianite army. You return to camp with a massive amount of spoil including tens of thousands of women and children. As you keep guard the commanders go off to report back to Moses. A while later they return with new instructions - Moses is furious about the prisoners of war and wants them separated into groups. The rest of the afternoon is spent separating the youngest girls from the rest of the captives. Its a horrifying task, the cries and of the mothers and the hysterical pleadings of the young girls is very distressing. When its over there are 32,000 girls who your commander says are to be shared out, 16,000 to the army and 16,000 to the rest of the families of Israel.
Cowering in front of you is a mass of terrified humanity, tens and tens of thousands of women and boys, some are only just too young to have fought with their fathers and brothers, others are just babes in arms clinging to their mothers, blissfully unaware of their fate. Now the order comes that you have been dreading. Moses’ command from Yahweh is that every one of them is to be put to death.
As your fellow soldiers unsheathe their swords and move towards the crowd there is a growing cacophony of screams. The women cover their children in a vain attempt to protect them from the massacre. Bodies are being dragged from the heap to uncover babies underneath so they too can be dispatched.
So what do you hope you would have the courage to do?
Faithfully carry out God’s command through Moses, or refuse to follow orders?
Scenario 2
Moses has died and the leadership has passed on to Joshua. The nation has crossed the Jordan and the city of Jericho was defeated miraculously. The next military target is the city of Ai. Yahweh has assured Joshua that the city will be easily defeated and the army have been given permission to take spoils of war.
Joshua has a plan and you are assigned to be part of a group of 30,000 of the best soldiers who are to sneak around the back of the city during the night and lie in wait. Joshua leads another section who moves out in front of the city gates towards Bethel. In the morning the men of Ai set out to repel Joshua’s frontal attack but the Israelite army flee with the Canaanite army in pursuit. With the city unguarded your section invades Ai and sets it on fire before marching out to help Joshua surround the men of Ai. The bluff works like a treat and victory is quick and decisive. You are excited now at the thought of getting straight back to Ai to discover what riches it may have to plunder.
Then comes that order again that you have been dreading. Before anybody gets to search out any valuables there is a job to do. The army is commanded to first go through the city carefully searching every house and execute every last woman and child. As you kick doors open you find women and children cowering together pleading for their lives.
So what do you hope you would have the courage to do?
Faithfully carry out God’s command through Joshua, or refuse to follow orders?
Scenario 3
The nation has been settled in the Promised Land for about 400 years. Your parents have often told you the old stories about the exploits of your ancestors who fought under Moses and Joshua and conquered the land. Israel has its first king now and you are proud to be a soldier in Saul’s army just like your forebears. Mostly your battles are defending the borders of Israel from hostile neighbours but then one day right out the blue you receive a strange instruction. You are ordered to muster at a town called Telaim, when you arrive you see that there are 200,000 foot soldiers as well as another 10,000 from the tribe of Judah. Something big must be happening.
Samuel addresses the troops and tells them he has had a word from Yahweh. Four centuries ago when your forefathers were leaving captivity in Egypt the Amalekites had attacked them in the desert at Rephidim. Joshua defeated them but not without a number of Israelite casualties. Now all these centuries and many generations later, Samuel says that God wants revenge on the descendants of those Amalekites.
Then comes the order you were dreading, “Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys”.
So what do you hope you would have the courage to do?
Faithfully carry out God’s command through Samuel, or refuse to follow orders?
See Number 31; Joshua 8; 1 Samuel 15