Dating the writing of a Bible book

by stirred but not shaken 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  stirred but not shaken

  While doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the Wt. Society was in error, I was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s CE. The reasoning that is used in the publications varies. By just using the logic as to when the book of Jude was written, the "All Scripture.." and the "Insight" book suggest it was the year 65 CE because ..."Jude does not mention Cestius Gallus' moving in to put down the Jews' revolt in 66 CE nor does he mention the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE. (italics mine)

  This didn't mean much to me at the time (several times) of reviewing this book during the TMS. As mentioned, over the last several years, my study and research lead me to a lot of alternatives. One of which is that all writings were completed before 70 CE including the last book, Revelation. None of the writings include any information regarding the worst destrucion of Jerusalem ever recorded in history. There is no Christian book of Lamentations. Not any of John's writings (96-98 CE) discuss it. This suggests that it hadn't happened and his writings would have been previous to the year 70. Of course this changes the popular prophetic explanation of many religious groups, not just JWs. I'm aware of the Pretarist view and they fall into more than one category, and I avoid being called an "ist" of anything, because I don't think the "jury" is completely out on many of things we have yet to get a full grasp on. But I can say for myself, that it answers more questions than not. Reading the Bible, especially the Christian scriptures, is much more focused, makes more sense, and explains why groups such as JWs are constantly adjusting their timelines.

  I know there are several on this board that have commented (quite articulately) in this regard. That point about Jude's writing time is just another good hint. Your thoughts!?
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  Crazyguy

  When I first read the idea that revelations was written probably earlier then 98 more like 60 it changed my whole perception of the NT. The peterist idea has a lot of validity because Paul, Jesus, and john all speak of the impending end of the age. Its mentioned 5 times in the last chapter of the bible alone. I have also learned that before 325 that most Christians may infact have been of the Gnostic line of thinking, Paul even writes like he may have been a Gnostic. Reading the writings and gospels that didn't make it to the bible may help to get a better idea on the whole mind set of early Christians and their beliefs. I know longer believe the bible to be inspired of God, nor do I believe the god of the Jews is a real god anymore then RA. I am not an atheist but no longer believe in the god of the Jews.
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  objectivetruth

  Hi Stirred,

  Interesting point regarding the completion in the mid 60's, this does make sense.

  Have you read "Gentile Times Reconsidered"? This was written by a fine brother a few years back, and in it he digs really deep into this same topic.

  if you're interested in reading it let me know, I can send you my copy..

  I'm not much for chronology, I've never been able to get into it too much, however the start and completion dates of various books is of interest to me.

  Have you read many Apocrypha or non canon books? Such as Enoch,Jasher ? There are some incredible insights found in some of these books that really help to illuminate areas of the Bible that aren't as clear.. I'm interested in hearing your insights in these books.

  By the way welcome to the Board! This is a great community, with all sorts of opinions.. The opinions are very diverse, but one thing that is constant is the care and love shown by each member. Were all in this together, and you will come to appreciate how tight knit this community is.
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  stirred but not shaken

  OT,

  When I first started on my search about 2006, I read books from scholars who wrote in the mid to later 1800s. Several have been quoted in WT literature (for other reasons). A lot of them held to an earlier writing of Revelation. Including Westcott & Hort if I remember correctly. I was completely unaware that there could be an alternative date for that book. While visiting the internet on the subject of 607, I saw that book by Jonnson advertised. At the time I was still suspicious of books not sponsored by the WT and found on sites known to be anti witnesses. So what I had learned came from, in several cases, sources that pre-dated the WT Society.

  Since then I have come to know more about Jonnson's work, and have read sections from other sources. Many from this forum. There are several JWs who have degrees in Hebrew studies, etc. and I've read some of their work. I will likely get a copy of "Gentile Times..." some time in the future, but wanted to be sure that I could tell people that my sources were not exJWs. I don't have much of a problem with that now.

  As to reading or seaching non-cannonical books, I've only read certain quotes, except for the 1 & 2 Maccabees. There is also quite a bit of commentary out there on the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumran era that I spent more than a little time on. It is quite revealing to know that there is considerable writings from non-cannonical books found there. They shed light on some things that you won't find in just the scriptures we're familiar with.

  All of this is quite a process, but it has helped me quite a bit to reconcile disputed understandings.
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  AnnOMaly

  I know it's not the same as having a hard copy in your hands, but FWIW, you can access the official version of Jonsson's book at,

  http://kristenfrihet.se/english/gtr4/contents.htm

  The chapters' page numbers are hyperlinked.
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  Phizzy

  I would suggest that the best approach is to take a consensus opinion from the leading N.T Scholars on the dating of each book. I think you will find that an early date for most of the N.T, apart from the actual writings of Paul, is highly suspect.

  It would seem that all the Gospels apart from perhaps Mark are post 70 C.E, as are deutero-Paul, (those writings attributed to him, but later than his life), and of course the letters of "John", the Revelation, and the Gospel of "John" are all very late.

  If you have convincing arguments to the contrary, I would be very interested to see them.
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  stirred but not shaken

  Thanks Ann. Phizzy, I'll look that up. I have some of the "old" standard bible dictionaries, concordances and commentaries, like Clark's, Young's, Strong's, Halley, Douglas, Unger and others. But if I recall they will hold to 96-98 with a few exceptions in their notes of a possible earlier writing.
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  Crazyguy

  Well one of the reasons the book of revelations is thought to be written earlier then 98 is because several of the congregations the

  book was addresed to were destroy in an earthquake in the early 60s can't remember what year exactly.
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  stirred but not shaken

  Phizzy,

  My purpose for initiating the post, was to point out that there is no book in the christian scriptures that comments on the destruction of Jerusalem post 70 CE. If, as you suggest, they are all later writings, should we not expect some comment on that event? Besides the vast wealth that was to be found in Jerusalem, Herod's temple was a masterpiece of architecture and viewed by many surrounding nations as a landmark. Other than writers like Josephus, there is nothing to be found in the scriptures.

  I will still investigate the scholars that suggest the later writing you refer to. I'm not sure where to start, but I'll get around to it eventually.
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  transhuman68

  Welcome stirred but not shaken. LOL, I know absolutely nothing about this subject, but it does interest me. Phizzy does have a point- Bible scholars sit around all day long arguing over these issues before they even think of writing a book about it, so it is very difficult to come up with a new theory without coming up an insurmountable obstacle too! Many of the Greek Scripture writers were 'mystics' like Paul, only concerned with 'spiritual things' and their followers, and were based in cities outside of Judea, so the fate of Jerusalem probably wasn't a concern of theirs. Plus; it was probably no surprise- there were many wars and rebellions in that area in the years before. Anyway, good luck, lol, but I doubt you'll come up with anything new..