You can't expect JWs to think freely, express things honestly, or show logic or reason. JWs live in a world of information and thought control. The only questions they are allowed to ask are printed at the bottom of the page of WT publications. Any answer provided in the WT publication is the only acceptable answer. Any thoughts that stray from the current teachings of WT are Satanic lies. To deviate from the confines of WT thinking would result in destruction at Armageddon... very soon now.
Meeting with an Elder and his wife
by Abe Ostate 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Crazyguy
Russell wrote a book called Time at hand, its the book were he predicts Armageddon in 1914, so yes they haven't been preaching the kingdom is near for 63 years its 100 years.
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ABibleStudent
Hi Abe Ostate, During your research, have you visited reputable websites like www.jwfacts.com and www.freedomofmind.com?
The elder and his wife were trying to recruit you into the WTBTS. The WTBTS teaches JWs how to confuse and indoctrinate potential recruits using BITE control techniques, thought-stopping platititudes (i.e. "Where will I go"), and unhealthy conversations. If you would like to learn more about BITE control and unhealthy conversations, please watch the short videos The BITE Model (Behavior Information Thought Emotion) (5:03) and How Big is the Phenomenon of Undue Influence? (2:01) by Steve Hassan, a reputable and recognized cult expert.
Once you except that the WTBTS is a dangerous cult, everything makes sense about JWs and how they behave.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
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twice shy
@ abe you said "the woman took me to Proverbs 8 and started telling me that Jesus had created everything."
If she said that. Witnesses and xjws would of known she was on her way out. They always speak of Jehovah talking in the book of Proverbs.
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dozy
It sounds like a typical elderly JW couple.
As others have said , you have to remember that it is something of a waste of time trying to discuss anything with people like these - it's like trying to wrestle with jelly. They have invested all their life in the religion and , on quite a simple superficial level , it has worked for them. They've probably got family & certainly a lot of JW friends and associates. They will die as JWs & get Kingdom Hall funerals.
Remember that JWs are rarely confronted with anyone who challenges them in the ministry. They have a simple message - the world is in a mess , the bible foretold this , the end is very soon.
As far as the wife saying that she hasn't preached that the end is soon - well , yes - that's obviously untrue. But it is a form of cognitive dissonance that she can't admit it to herself that she has essentially been preaching a falsehood for 60 years. So , when challenged ( which she very rarely is ) she has to try to justify it by revising history.
Will they return? Most JWs kind of give up on those just asking questions and not making progress.
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blondie
*** w06 8/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
How do we know that the description of wisdom at Proverbs 8:22-31 applies to Jesus Christ in his prehuman existence?
The inspired description of wisdom found in the book of Proverbs reads: “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. . . . Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains . . . When he prepared the heavens I was there; . . . then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, . . . and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”
This passage cannot be speaking merely about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract. Why not? Because the wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Psalm 90:1, 2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced. It was not “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person.—Proverbs 8:1.
The book of Proverbs says that long ago wisdom was beside Jehovah, the Creator, as “a master worker.” That certainly applies to Jesus. Long before he came to earth, Jesus worked so closely with Jehovah that God’s Word says: “He is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”—Colossians 1:17; Revelation 3:14.
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since he was the One who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. During his prehuman existence, Jesus was God’s Word, or Spokesman. (John 1:1) He is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:24, 30) What a beautiful description of the Son of God, whose fondness for mankind moved him to give his life as a ransom in their behalf!—John 3:16.
[Picture on page 31]
“Before the mountains . . . I was brought forth”
*** w75 8/15 pp. 511-512 Questions From Readers ***
● Does the description of “Wisdom” in Proverbs 8:22-31 actually apply to Jesus, the Son of God?
Persons who accept only the Hebrew Scriptures or who do not believe in Jesus Christ often explain Proverbs 8:22-31 as applying to Wisdom personified only in some figurative way. That application of the verses, however, does not agree with what is known about God. Furthermore, accepting the sound view that the entire Bible, including Proverbs, is inspired, a person can see that the description of “Wisdom” here in Proverbs matches what is said elsewhere in the Bible about the Son of God. We read:
“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. . . . Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains . . . When he prepared the heavens I was there; . . . then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, . . . and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”—Prov. 8:22-31.
Jewish commentators, objecting to any application of this passage to Jesus as the Messiah, have usually held that this is merely a literary personification of wisdom. Thus, W. Gunther Plaut, in his work Book of Proverbs—A Commentary, says that these verses apply to Wisdom “personified only in a figurative way.” This passage, however, cannot be speaking merely about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract. Why not? Because the “Wisdom” that is here depicted was “created” or “produced” (Hebrew, qa·nah ′ ) as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. The Scriptures show that Jehovah God himself has always existed. (Ps. 90:2; 1 Tim. 1:17) Since he is eternal and he has always been wise, then his wisdom has always existed; it never was created or produced; it was not “brought forth as with labor pains.” (Job 9:2, 4; 12:9, 13; 28:20, 23; Rom. 11:33-36) Wisdom does not exist apart from a personality capable of possessing and reflecting it. Consequently, this “Wisdom” must be a personification picturing someone who was created “as the beginning of [God’s] way.”
The Christian Greek Scriptures aid a person to understand to whom this passage evidently refers. They repeatedly testify to the fact that the Messiah had a prehuman existence as the Son of God in heaven with Jehovah. (John 17:5; 6:62) In that prehuman existence he worked with Jehovah in creating all other things. John 1:3 says about this one: “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”—Compare Colossians 1:15, 16.
It is understandable that the Son of God could be depicted as created “Wisdom.” Through him Jehovah’s wise purpose, including the role of the Messiah whom the Jews were long awaiting, was made manifest. The apostle Paul said about Jesus: “Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.” (Col. 2:3) While King Solomon was renowned for his God-given wisdom, Jesus was “something more than Solomon.” (1 Ki. 4:30-34; Matt. 12:42) Those who accepted Jesus Christ and had faith in him realized that he was “the power of God and the wisdom of God.”—1 Cor. 1:24, 30.
Accordingly, what we know about our eternally wise God and the information in the Christian Greek Scriptures about Jesus combine to make clear the appropriateness of applying Proverbs 8:22-31 to the Son of God who became the Messiah. That passage remarkably fits the origin and activities of that one whose fondness for mankind even led to his dying as a ransom sacrifice.—1 Tim. 2:5, 6; John 3:16.
[Footnotes]
In the past, commentators and translators who held to the Trinity doctrine argued that qa·nah ′ should here be rendered “possessed.” Qa·nah ′ can convey the sense of either “acquire (possess)” or “produce.” (Gen. 4:1; Deut. 32:6; Ps. 139:13; Neh. 5:16) But scholars acknowledge that the context here points to the rendering “produced” or “created,” since verses 24 and 25 speak of Wisdom as being “brought forth as with labor pains.” This rendering is borne out by the Greek Septuagint, the Syriac Peshitta Version and the Targums. So now even translations by trinitarians, such as the Catholic Jerusalem Bible, use the rendering “produced” or “created.”
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BluesBrother
The whole conversation was like that: they mention something, I respond, they rush the conversation on to something else.
Classic Ministry technique, if a line of argument isn't working or the householder raises awkward questions - acknowlege but change the subject quickly.
No doubt when they left they said that the call on you was not productive because you were not looking for "the truth", not teachable , so on to the next call!
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DATA-DOG
The WTBTS teaches that Jesus is NOT our creator. He is not even a co-creator. Yes, even though GOD used him as a master worker, Jesus did not create anything.
It would be like having your child go to the kitchen, crack some eggs, throw some bacon in the skillet, make some pancakes, make coffee, and set the table. Then you invite some family over for the breakfast that YOU cooked. I know what you are thinking, " Didn't the child cook the breakfast, making him a Cook??" That is fleshly thinking. Your child was merely a worker because YOU caused their birth. YOU were the Cook because you delegated the work. Make sense?
If I was a kid and cooked all that food and my parent took credit for it, I would think, " What an ass.." It seems like JEEHOOBER wants to take all the credit and is an crazy parent who wants all the attention.
Look, JWs cannot defend the "truth." Thier "truth" is an ever-changing mish-mash of human ideas that they cannot even explain. That Sister probably believed the she NEVER said the END was near. She probably never read and comprehended the magazines she placed.
DD
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steve2
Abe, please don't end up as thick as this couple by trying vainly to reach them. Clearly, you speak different languages. JWs are notoriously poor listeners and oftentimes have very low personal insight into their own behaviour. That is why the woman jumped all over the place with her poor capacity for following a clear line of reasoning and why she could state she had not earlier preached the end was near - even though their literature AND she herself would have. Unless you have not got better things to do with you head, stop banging it against the kingdom hall brick wall.
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Ding
If you are going to confront them with something the WT has said, (such as the nearness of the end)," try asking them about specific statements in WT articles or books, like Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89, which said that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would be resurrected in 1925.
If they deny the WT said what it said, ask them to show you the originals, either in print or on CD-ROM.
Otherwise, they'll just deny the WT said it and hope you don't know specifics.