144000 Literal or Figurative?

by why144000 27 Replies latest jw friends

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  Vanderhoven7

  Both the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd") consist of members who are:

  144,000/GREAT CROWD

  a. From every kindred and nation. 5:9 /7:9

  b. Servants of God. 7:3 /7:15

  c. Divinely protected thru tribulation 9:4,5 /Acts 14:22 7:14

  d. followers of the Lamb 14:4 /7:17

  e. Redeemed 14:3 /7:14

  f. Pure and Spotless 14:4 /7:13,14

  g. Standing before the throne 14:1 /3 7:9

  h. Before the Lamb 5:8 /7:9

  i. In His temple (naos) 11:1,2 7:15; 11:19

  j. Tenting/residing with God 2Cor. 6:16/ 7:15

  i. Dressed in white robes 6:11 7:9

  j. Wearing robes that are washed 22:14 /7:14

  h. A heavenly class 14:1; 4:1,2; 19:1

  i. Spirit begotten 7:3 / I Jn. 5:1

  The tribes are not literal natural Israel; the tribes are no longer identifiable; and those of natural Israel are not sealed by the Spirit or born again. Having rejected their Messiah, their house was left desolate...as Jesus pronounced

  The 144,000 represent Spiritual Israel being depicted, with the rogue tribe Dan excluded and the non-tribe of Joseph used to fill in. There is no separate tribe of Joseph; this is not literal Israel. Consequently, the tidy sum of 12000 from each non-literal tribe cannot be a literal number as well. And similarly, the total of the non literal tribes and their non-literal numbers (144,000) equally cannot be literal. Interpretation has to be consistent. It's all figurative; tribes and numbers.

  If the number 144,000 is a symbol for the church, then that so-called difference between the the 144,000 and the Great Crowd of believers falls apart.

  The 144,000 and the Great company are actually the same group being described in two different settings and in two different time frames. The 144000 and the Great crowd both represent the entire church of God. The 144,000 in scene one (verses 1 – 8) represent God's view or perspective of His perfect church... and scene 2 represents what John sees from a human perspective. So there is a contrast here, but its not one of numbers, but perspective, divine versus human.

  LOOKING AT the number 144,000 A LITTLE MORE CLOSELY:

  How is God to numerically express the entire church down through history? When you apply the promise to Abraham of an innumerable progeny, comparable to the stars in the heaven for number, we would certainly be dealing with a sizable group, an innumerable group, How is God to give a definite total for such an innumerable multitude? Why couldn't it be by a number which no man could number,- ie. by a symbol- which stands for completion and perfect symmetry?

  David Chilton, in his excellent commentary on Revelation entitled, "Days of Vengeance" page 206 says

  “The number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; Ps.50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). St. John pictures for us the ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its perfection, symmetry, and completeness."

  There is further biblical support that the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are identical, that they really are the same group being described from two different perspectives, divine and human. John heard the (perfect) number; then he saw the actual group. This "hearing" then "seeing" sequencing is a literary device that THE APOSTLE John uses frequently in Revelation to display his images from different viewpoints. David Chilton demonstrates this pattern of hearing and seeing on page 213 of:”Days of Vengeance:”

  “For example, in 1:10-13, St. John hears a Voice, then turns

  to see the Lord; in 5:5-6, he hears the Lion of Judah, then

  sees the Lamb; in 6:1-8, he hears a living creature say "Come!"

  - then sees the object of the creatures command. The same

  pattern appears in this chapter: St. John tells us, I heard the

  number of those who were sealed (v.4); then, after these things

  - after hearing the number of the redeemed - I looked, and behold

  a Great Multitude (v.9).

  There is one church indivisible; the Great crowd is not a piddly 71/2 million which we can all number; and the number of those sealed by the Spirit of God is a perfect number, representing a perfect innumerable body of believers....as promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
• 

  Truthexplorer

  The searcher, your point is the only way they can dig themselves out of the hole they have got into. keeping a count of numbers of this that and the other is pointless. and will lead to further embarrassments ahead.
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  greendawn

  Yeah to them it is some kind of comfort zone all these amazing things to supposedly evade growing old and dying and also oppressive human rule. But the 144 000 being literal seems to serve the purposes of the leadership more as it minimises the number of the "elite" JWs that could challenge them.
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  prologos

  living quietly: you summed up nicely again.

  wt has already said that: the 12 tribes are the earthly class+ great crowd

  the total= IOG.

  but that is lie disseccting Mcbeth of the bard, its a story, talking snake and all. and

  Vanderhoven even better, detailed.

  Joseph the standing - apart brother, apostate rewarded with special status. but

  the tribes ARE DISTINCT. how else could the angels find, seal and EXACTLY count off the 12 k each?
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  dozy

  Its obviously figurative and obviously statistically nonsense ( there were hundreds of thousands of Christians in the 1st century and have been far more than 144K JWs claiming to be anointed since Chuck Russell's time ).

  I don't think though that the WTBTS can ditch or fudge this as easily as they did with the generation teaching. They had painted themselves into a corner and had run out of time with that one - it had been stretched so far that it became completely undefendable. When they started to speak about 120 year olds living in Georgia & Japan then it became a bit of a joke. Unless and until the number of partakers rises to ridiculous levels ( ie 100,000 or more ) , the WTBTS won't be forced to act.

  I think , using the method described by Franz in his books when the GB wanted to quietly retire an old teaching , they will just quietly not mention it for a quite a few years. This process seems to have already started - there are hardly any references to a literal 144K in the Watchtower these days.
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  greendawn

  Hi objectivetruth, regarding the connection of the "144 000 undefiled by women" and babylon the great I haven't any good explanations but it certain that the women there are symbolic given that the whole context is symbolic. The JWs who claim that babylon as the great whore is false religion but who knows if this is true though it is certain that the WTS is a very false and exploitative religion with their whore like traits being obvious in many instances eg barefaced lying, greed for power. They sold precious spiritual things for a pittance for the sake of selfish gain.

  Undefiled by wayward women may mean undefiled by the lower instinctual elements of life.
• 

  Jeffro

  144000 Literal or Figurative?

  No. And no. It's imaginary.

  How can the society change the 144,000 to figurative without blowing themselves out of the water?

  They won't (or at least, they don't need to). They already claim that 'partakers' may be suffering from "mental or emotional imbalance", so (as usual), they see no need for any rational explanation.
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  enigma1863