I don't usually do it anymore (debating with a JW) but my co-worker is a "devout" JWs and she just always want to talk about the bible with me. I try to avoid her because I just realize it is a "waste" of time trying to show the JWs anything negative about the WT society. I believe everybody has a right to belong to whichever religion or faith he or she wishes, but talking to a JWs about their beliefs just goes in circles. Well she wanted to talk about the 144,000 and the great crowd. I asked her to read Rev 19:1,6 and she did but she immediately argued they were "angels" and not the same Great Crowd mentioned in Rev 7. I guess it could be argued that there are many "Great Crowds" mentioned in the bible and they all are not the same. But I asked her why would St. John say Great Crowd in Rev 7 and not just say "angels" if he meant "angels in Rev 19? He could have easily said "And I heard a sound of many "angels" but he specifically says "great crowd". Well my coworker grabbed her "Reasoning book" and showed me where the WT says they are "angels" and she told me "These men know more then me". I said "Sue it has been nice talking to you about spiritual matters, I can tell you have a real zeal for doing the right thing". I have not spoken to her about the bible since. It is a waste of time talking to a JW. I suppose in another 10 years they will come up with a "new" reasoning book where they will tell peoople the Great Crowd of Rev 19:1,6 is the same Great Crowd from Rev 7 because they have received "new light" and all reasoning books from 1985 will have to be destroyed.
The "Great Crowd" at Rev 19:1,6 are said by JWs to be "angels"
by booker-t 4 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Crazyguy
I believe in every instince John does say when it the angels so with this in mind then the verse in 19:1 is acctually the same great crowd as in chapter 7. You may also ask her who this greatcrowd is and then show her were it says they are coing out of the great tribulation. Then ask her since the great tribulatuion hasnt started yet what group is she in today??
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wizzstick
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989233
Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?
The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9 . The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.— Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37 .
Couple of points on this:
1) Nowhere does it suggest that these are angels, instead when there is an angel it is clearly listed as such.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwt/E/2013/66/19#h=128:0-128:197
So not much help when trying to adamantly state that the "great crowd" are angels.
2) The “great crowd” references in the NWT of Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37 never actually mention the word "great" instead each reference uses the word "large". Not much use then when arguing that the expression "great crowd" is used elsewhere!
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwt/E/2013/41/5#dcv_5_24
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwt/E/2013/41/6#dcv_6_34
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwt/E/2013/41/12#dcv_12_37
Dimebars!
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Phizzy
I think that here, although it pains me to write this, the WT have got a point about Rev. 19.
The writer does not say in chapter 19 that he saw a great crowd, he says that : "And I heard what was as a voice of a great crowd, and as a sound of many waters and as a sound of heavy thunders ". NWT.
"They" say in the later part of the verse that God has begun to reign, "They" are announcing this. Sounds like angels to me.
Where I would strongly disagree with the WT is their interpretation of Chapter 7. If you read it for yourself without WT specs on it is quite plain what it is talking about. The specific number 144,000 simply is to show that none are missing from those who have gained salvation, the total number of those who do gain Salvation is impossible to count for "John" , but note, it includes people from all nations and ethnic groups, ALL nations would include the Jews !
So, note, salvation has been attained by all these people, who are in Heaven, "before the throne", "rendering Him sacred service day and night in his temple".
(The Temple is in heaven). This would mean that todays JW's do not feature in this vision, as they tell you that they have not yet got salvation, the great Crowd in this vision have, so cannot be JW's !
The WT seems incapable of even reading the Bible as a normal person would, they have to impose their weird theology on texts that are plainly at odds with it.
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pixel
Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?
The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9 . The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.— Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37 .
Perfect logic here. How about this?
The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” (also, they are not described with wings, or flying, or referred as angels) or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels (Why???????)