There is law that can be applied to being DFed or DA

by Giordano 34 Replies latest jw friends

  • lisaBObeesa
    lisaBObeesa

    People who used lawyers to write letters about NOT having their names announced as 'no longer a JW'

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/private/219169/1/Important-to-put-in-your-letter-of-DA#.UyXQy4U26M0

    This one especially address the exact thing I am talking about...there are actually two legal letters in this thread about DA and the announcement...

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/18983/1/Re-Mad-Apostates-form-letter#.UyXRSIU26M0

    These letters WORKED.

    If you withdraw your membership, they have no right to discipline you in any way and certainly not with a coded announcement that is intended to label you an unrepentant sinner of some sort.

    That is how I understand it, anyway.

    As I said in the previous post, if I were trying to leave the JWs, I would NEVER send a letter saying I 'disassociated.' NEVER. Only someone who is a member of the WTBTS can 'disassociate' and it would be my contention that I am NOT a member of the WTBTS. And I WOULD get a lawyer send a letter like those above, to ensure they don't discipline me, a non-member.

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    LisaBo

    The main reason the WTS don't elaborate as to why a person has been DF or DA

    is not done outta " Love ", But to shed a bad light upon all who dare to leave

    no matter what the circumstance

    .

    .

  • lisaBObeesa
    lisaBObeesa

    The main reason the WTS don't elaborate as to why a person has been DF or DA is not done outta " Love ", But to shed a bad light upon all who dare to leave

    Well, I think the announcement is to shed a bad light on the person, yes, but I think the lack of elaboration I think is also to avoid lawsuits.

    However, as we all know their announcement does communicate very clearly, through a code understood to JWs, that the person is an unrepentant sinner and must be disciplined by the congregation.

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    To lump someone who has simply changed their mind about the truth with child molesters, violent criminals, thieves and other significant criminal conduct is astounding. Which is what they do when when they dismiss a sincere person by saying SO and SO is no longer a JW.........

    What is equally astounding is now many times the WTBTS has changed it's mind about their own 'truth'. Their flip flops on doctrines are legendary. As far as I can tell it could be said that by their own rules "The WTBTS is no longer a JW".

  • DT
    DT

    There are a number of peculiarities about how Jehovah's Witnesses do things that may or may not be relevant legally.

    They haven't properly defined what constitutes membership in their organization. The baptism questions are worded in a way that implies that baptism is what makes someone a Jehovah's Witness.

    This is peculiar because when someone is disfellowshipped, it is announced that they are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses. It would almost seem like their baptism has been invalidated. Yet, when they are reinstated they aren't required to be rebaptised.

    So was the baptism valid during the disfellowshipping period or not? If the disfellowshipping invalidated the baptism and membership in the religion, then a person who is reinstated and not rebaptised could claim that they have a right to sue if they experience any further disciplinary action. The person wouldn't actually be a member if baptism is what defines membership. (At least that argument could be made.)

    On the other hand, it could be argued that disfellowshipping doesn't invalidate the baptism. In that case, someone who has been disfellowshipped and is seeking reinstatement could be viewed as a current member who is experiencing congregational discipline. He will be harassed by the elders and will maintain communication with them. He will be shunned by other members and have to endure a shaming ritual as he attends meetings on a regular basis. If he succeeds in ending this period of congregational discipline, he will not have to undergo a new ritual (baptism) to indicate that he is one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    If that person becomes dissatisfied with how he is being treated and sues, then the Watchtower lawyers would probably claim that this is an internal religious matter and that the courts have no jurisdiction. And they would have a point.

    However, if such a situation is truly an internal religious matter, then the announcement that someone is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses is a lie for those who have been disfellowshipped.

    If that announcement is a lie, it could be argued that it is just code for the idea that the person is still under their control and it is proper to continue to punish and harass the person until the elders say it's time to stop.

    In that case, such an announcement would be morally reprehensible if applied to one who disassociates. It could even be problematic from a legal viewpoint if someone found a way to challenge that in court. (This is just an opinion from someone who isn't a lawyer.)

    What if baptism isn't what determines membership? It is noteworthy that Jehovah's Witnesses don't use baptism as the criteria for determining the size of their membership. They only count people who share in their ministry. This includes people who haven't been baptized yet and ignores those who have been baptised, but are inactive.

    If their ministry is what implies membership (as their name implies), then they have a problem. It resolves certain inconsistencies about baptism, but it implies that anyone who has become inactive for a significant amount of time is no longer a member and should be immune from congregational discipline.

    I would love to see some of these issues resolved in a court of law, but I'm not optimistic that it will happen any time soon. The Witnesses seem to like ambiguity and the ability to make contradictory claims so they can use whatever defense has the best chance for success in a particular situation.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    The letters could not work. Well, let me go to an Internet article on brain surgery and perform on it myself.

  • lisaBObeesa
    lisaBObeesa

    The letters could not work.

    But... the letters did work.

  • lisaBObeesa
    lisaBObeesa

    another legal letter informing the elders they have no right to make any coded announcement about a person who has withdrawn their membership from their church:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/91719/1/Seeker4s-500th-Post-My-letter-to-the-Elders-2nd-Posting#.UyXazIU26M1

    docbob takes it further, agreeing to a judicial committe under his terms (that they would never agree to), but stating that if he is DF by the judicial committe then it is understood that he is no longer a JW and therefore they have no further rights to discipline him in any way.

    I understand that if I am disfellowshipped by the judicial committee and the disfellowshipping is upheld by the appeal committee that I am, at that point, no longer considered to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I also understand that it is necessary to make a brief announcement that I have been disfellowshipped. From then on, I will consider any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any of Jehovah’s Witnesses to treat me differently from any other person that is not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to be a serious violation of my civil rights and I may initiate any legal action, civil or criminal that I deem appropriate. This includes any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any present Jehovah’s Witnesses to shun or avoid me, cease or otherwise modify their doing business with me, or terminate or otherwise abrogate any lease, rental, mortgage, or any other legal agreement that I may presently have with them. I may consider such to be an infringement of free trade and may initiate appropriate legal action.

    http://www.docbob.org/wordpress/letter-2

  • Island Man
    Island Man

    Here's a line of reasoning that might work:

    A person who resigns from membership in a church should not be treated differently by the church than it treats persons who were never members to begin with. Nor should the church be teaching existing members to treat former members differently than they would treat any other never-member of the church.

    I think the fact that the Watchtower teaches its members to treat resigned members differently to never-members amouints to the Watchtower seeking to impose its punitivie authority on a person who is not a member of the organization by virtue of telling its members to shun such individuals. I think a fundamental principle that should be at work is this: A member of a church should have the right to return to the same status he had before becoming a member (to the extent humanly possible, of course). No organization should have the right to forever have an influence on a person's life - if even indirectly by how it teaches its members to treat that person - after the person has severed his ties with that organization.

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    While a church has a right to discipline a member it does not have a right to continue that discipline when a person ends their relationship with a religion. The WTBTS may think they get around that by simply saying SO and SO is NO Longer a JW they are also on record for urging members to shun a person and in fact they also make sure a member knows that they in turn could be disfellowhiped if they do not shun.

    http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/search/label/JW

    Why is it a bad idea to continue church discipline on non members?

    First off
    it is violation of domestic law. Religion in American is a consensual affair at
    all times not permanent contract. A person's relationship with a religion ends
    the moment they say it ends. It is a violation of first amendment rights to
    assert religious authority over someone without their consent. Marian
    Guinn vs Church of Christ Collinsville
    is an important case where the courts
    were definitive, " No real freedom to choose
    religion would exist in this land if under the shield of the First Amendment
    religious institutions could impose their will on the unwilling and claim
    immunity from secular judicature for their tortious acts." A similar case
    involving a Mormon was Norman
    Hancock
    , with the same result the Hancock was awarded damanges as the court
    saw continuing a disciplinary process on a non member to be a violation of their
    civil rights.

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