Concerning Luke 24:39

by FrankRaven 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • FrankRaven
    FrankRaven

    When one talks to a Witness about the resurrection why do they always say that Christ came back as a spirit when Christ clearly said in Luke 24:39,that He did not come back as a spirit?Scripture clearly says that ,"A spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

    "It is not a form of religious persecution to say and
    to show that another religion is false
    as being false, thus allowing persons to see the
    difference between false religion and true religion."
    (Watchtower 11/15/63, p 688)
    RevFrank

  • Adonai438
    Adonai438

    Frankly,
    Because when they predicted his physical return in 1879 and he didn't cooperate they decided it was an invisible/spiritual return. If his return is invisibe where is his body? Oh, thats right, he can't have one so the resurrection has to be 'spiritual' only too. The lengths they go to to cover up mistakes is sad.

    You are very right though, When Jesus appeared to the disciples they thought they were seeing a ghost/or spirit. Jesus corrected them in the above scripture you quote. In another gospel he even takes a piece of fish and eats it with them to prove he is alive and well.

    The JWs Jesus is a liar. Their doctrine teaches that Jesus was using another fabricated body while on earth after the resurection and before the Ascension just to make the disciples believe he was really alive. The body wasn't really his, he was just putting on an act so they would believe him. He was really only a spirit but they wouldn't undestand that so he had to fake a body. Go figure.

    <>< Angie

  • somebody
    somebody

    And 2John 7 describes them well.

    7 For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

    peace,
    somebody

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Dearest Frank, may you have peace!

    I am not a witness and I entirely 'see' your point and agree with you that it was flesh that was presented to Thomas, et al. I am compelled by holy spirit, however, to 'expound the Way of Truth more correctly to you', though, and therefore, have to say that while it indeed was flesh that was shown to Thomas, et al., it was not the same flesh as was impaled, but 'new' flesh... as spirit beings have the capability to 'put on' and 'put off' flesh, as they will, unless restricted from doing so by the 'chains' of Tartarus.

    It was in this manner that the Nephilim were in the earth and procreated with the daughters of men. They 'put on' flesh. Otherwise, such relations were 'immaculate', yes?

    The thing is, though, Frank, that my Lord is recorded to have said some things of great significance. For instance, he is recorded to have said:

    "Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from
    water AND SPIRIT (God's life force which is, then,
    'holy' or 'clean' spirit)... he CANNOT enter into
    the kingdom of God. What has been born from the
    flesh... IS FLESH... and what has been born from
    the spirit... IS SPIRIT. Do not marvel because I
    told you, You people must be born... AGAIN.

    The [spirit] blows where it wants to... and you
    hear the SOUND of it... but you do not know where
    it COMES from and where it is GOING. So is every-
    one that has been born... FROM THE SPIRIT.

    When my Lord died, dear one, he died... in the flesh so that he could be BORN... IN THE SPIRIT! Thus, my Lord did not ascend... and 'change'... in the flesh that was impaled, which was 'born' from Mary... flesh, with its blood (its life being IN its blood)... sinFUL flesh... (Romans 8:3)... which has in it 'corruption', so that it CAN die. Rather, in order to make a 'way' for US... he had flesh that was 'put on' after his resurrection... flesh 'born' from SPIRIT... from GOD... flesh with its SPIRIT (its life being in the SPIRIT)... sinLESS flesh... which is 'incorruptible', so that it canNOT die.

    For flesh, with its blood, cannot enter into the kingdom of the heavens. The flesh he revealed to Thomas, et al., then, that which was unrecognizable to them and could pass through doors, was flesh that was FREE... flesh 'without' its blood, withOUT red hemoglobin... for ITS 'blood' was holy spirit... the life, blood, regenerative force ('seed'/sperm/semen) and 'water' of life ... of God... so that such flesh COULD enter... into the kingdom of God... so as to present a sacrifice.

    This flesh was the same as that which Adam had BEFORE he was given 'a long garment of skin'. His initial flesh with made 'in the image' of God and spirit beings so that SPIRIT was its 'blood'... versus flesh with red homoglobin. That first flesh, which was taken from the earth but given life by the SPIRIT of God, enabled Adam to go in AND out of the Garden, of Paradise... of 'Jerusalem Above'... the SPIRIT realm. He was PERMITTED to go in... and out... because like OTHER spirit beings... he was FREE. And it did not age, get sick or die, until he disobeyed and became 'enslaved'... to flesh... with ITS blood (red hemoglobin). THAT blood is corrupt, in that it holds corruption IN it: sickness, aging, death. It even must be BURIED, returned to the earth... so great is its corruption... its decay. But the flesh my Lord had after his resurrection, contrary to the flesh he had BEFORE (which was 'buried')... ASCENDED... versus DESCENDED.

    Genesis 3:21
    Genesis 28:12
    Job 1:7; 2:2
    John 10:9

    "Free" spirits have this capability, to appear in the flesh as well as in the spirit. Notice, Gabriel appeared to Daniel as an 'able-BODIED man'... not as a man in spirit, such as seen in the fiery furnace or my Lord's tomb... but a man... APPEARING in flesh like ours.

    Daniel 8:15

    Spirits have flesh, too. But the BLOOD of a 'clean' spirit is DIFFERENT from the blood of 'unclean' flesh. It is because of this difference of flesh... the BLOOD... that blood was used to ratify the Law Covenant and held the position that it DID under the LAW Covenant... because THAT covenant rendered Israel as SLAVES to God. However, the NEW Covenant set us FREE... making us BROTHERS of Christ and his FRIENDS... by means of SPIRIT... and not flesh!

    Thus, my Lord is recorded to have said:

    "It is the SPIRIT that is LIFE-GIVING;
    the FLESH... is of NO use... AT ALL."

    You, then, dear Frank, continue to make your concern my Lord's flesh. And perhaps rightly so; I cannot say what is 'good'... for YOU. But for ME, I have been taught by my Lord to 'hear'... and GET THE SENSE OF IT when he says:

    "The sayings that I have spoken to you
    are SPIRIT... and are LIFE."

    John 6:63

    You, therefore, may wish to keep your mind on the flesh, on the things SEEN, and therefore on the things 'of the earth'. I, on the other hand, will keep my mind on the things of the SPIRIT, on the things UNSEEN, and thus on the things 'in the heavens'. For that is where my treasure is... and thus, my heart: in the kingdom of God, "New" Jerusalem, the 'free wife' of God, my 'mother', and the place from which my SPIRIT originates... and is 'born'. Which place is 'unseen' by flesh... with its blood... but readily manifest to flesh... alive by the SPIRIT.

    For it is as my Lord said to Thomas:

    "Because you see you believe? HAPPY are those
    who do NOT see... and yet... believe."

    Again, I bid you the greatest of peace.

    Your servant and a [voluntary and willing] slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    1 Pet. 3:18
    "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison"

    Luke 24:39
    "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."

    Is this perhaps a biblical contradiction??? [GASP!!!]

    "As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible" - The Watchtower, April 15, 1928, p. 126
    Believe in yourself, not mythology.
    <x ><

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere
    I am compelled by holy spirit

    AGuest... just curious, how do you know that is it "holy spirit" that is compelling you? Perhaps you’ve just got gas, and that’s what you’re feeling.

    "As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible" - The Watchtower, April 15, 1928, p. 126
    Believe in yourself, not mythology.
    <x ><

  • meomy
    meomy

    AGuest hello i would like to know how you believe one is to be born again, and also do you think only 144,000 are. Or do you believe it is an infinite number. also how did you come to believe about adams garment not being a physical garment...just that he lost the ability to go back and forth between paradise and earth. Do you think paradice was on earth? Thanks i have been trying to sort things out.

    >>I always thought the garment of skin was animal skin because he was ashamed of his nakedness because of sin...Thanks Meomy

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Is this perhaps a biblical contradiction??? [GASP!!!]

    Actually, dear Elsewhere (may you have peace!), no, it is not. It occurred this way:

    1. My Lord's flesh with its blood was impaled. Although this flesh also had spirit, it also had blood (note: blood AND water poured out when he died).

    2. When he was laid in the tomb, his body was 'changed' into a SPIRIT, so as not to 'see corruption', whereafter, he went to the world of the dead and preached to the spirits there. That is why there was no body in the tomb.

    3. He was 'raised up' a SPIRIT, which has the capability of putting on flesh, but flesh withOUT its blood, the 'blood' of which is holy spirit, the 'blood' of God. Which 'new' flesh he put on and thus was not recognized by his disciples (his previous flesh had been ravaged by sickness, as whenever he healed someone, he took THEIR 'sins'... sickness, aging... death... into HIS flesh... so that by the time they impaled him, he looked like 'death', 'afflicted by God', anyway.) Thus, he could enter through a closed door and stand in their midst.

    Simple, ain't it?

    how do you know that is it "holy spirit" that is compelling you? Perhaps you’ve just got gas, and that’s what you’re feeling.
    Perhaps. And yet, I KNOW it, because I know what I know... and what I don't know. And I... don't know this stuff, but simply speak what I 'hear'... what is told to me, given to me, by my Lord. And HE says... it is by means of holy spirit. Now, perhaps you are not able to 'get the sense' of that, or the things I am permitted to share, because perhaps you... lack faith. Perhaps.

    Dear Meomy... may you also have peace!

    i would like to know how you believe one is to be born again
    My Father, the Holy One of Israel, JAH OF ARMIES, plants His 'seed'... His SPIRIT... in such one, through Christ (which is why the CHRIST is called 'eternal Father', for he is the 'instrument' by means of which we ARE 'beget' of God). God... is a farmer, a 'cultivator', and He plants 'seed'. The 'tree' or 'root' of that 'seed', is Christ. Those of us IN Christ... are like branches in that tree.

    Just like God put 'life' in Mary, by planting my Lord's life in her womb, so, too, my Father 'planted' us in Christ. We are 'seed' of His 'free wife', the spirit realm, Jerusalem Above, which was hidden here in the physical realm ('treasure in earthen vessels) from enemies in the spirit realm, until such time as we could be 'fertilized' (receive God's spirit)... 'conceived' (REgenerated) and 'born' (again, this time as the spirits we truly are, the 'seed' of God and His 'wife', the spirit realm).

    do you think only 144,000 are
    No, for ALL who are led by God's spirit are God's sons. The 144,000 are those sons who are taken from the seed of Abraham, from among the sons of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe (two for Joseph; none for Dan), in fulfillment to my Father's promise TO Abraham. It was a promised that was to initially include ALL of Abraham's seed, and ONLY Abraham's seed. But, due to that seed's rejection of their king, their 'portion' was removed... and given to people of 'every nation, tribe, tongue and people', so that there is only ONE flock... one faith, one Lord, one baptism, one God, one Spirit... ONE HOPE... and together these 'render sacred service in the temple' of God... as only priests are allowed to do.

    Revelation 5:9, 10
    Revelation 7:4, 9, 15
    Romans 11:13, 25, 26

    Thus, while the 12 were apostles and 'witnesses of [Christ] throughout all Judea and Samaria' (Jews = 2-tribe kingdom of Judah; Samaritans = 10-tribe kingdom of Israel; BOTH = Israelites), Paul... was an apostle... to the NATIONS.

    Or do you believe it is an infinite number
    Infinite? No, it has a number. Just not one MAN is able to determine.

    how did you come to believe about adams garment not being a physical garment...
    I was told this by my Lord, when he explained to me what Adam was initially made of. You see, there is this erroneous belief that we are made in God's image. We are not. We are made in ADAM's image; HE (Adam) was made in God's image. These are the 'truths' told to me BY the Truth, my Lord, the Son and Christ of God, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH (John 14:6).

    Which truths I shared with others, who needed a 'second witness' (as they 'noble-mindedly' might need to). They discovered that the true transliteration is 'long garment of skin', which even the NWT says (it was ASSUMED to be animal skin, because, well, where else would Adam and Eve get clothes? But their nakedness was NOT a result of not having clothing on their bodies; it was their naked HEARTS and its 'uncleaness' that was 'exposed', that was 'hideous', and had to be 'covered'. Previously, their hearts were exposed... because they held nothing 'bad' IN them.

    A spirit being cannot 'hide' what is 'in' him. However, a man of flesh... with its blood... can. That is why my Lord said to the Pharisees that they looked like 'whitewashed graves' but INSIDE were 'full of dead men's bones.' Thus, he rebuked them to 'cleanse the INSIDE of the cup' (purify their hearts), THEN worry about the outside of it. For God does not see what appears to the EYES... including PHYSICAL nakedness... but He sees what is in the heart.

    Although it was their bodies that Adam and Eve attempted to hide... it was their hearts had become 'naked'... which is why they COULDN'T hide. And earthling man still tries to do it today. Once they sinned and were given flesh with its blood, ALL things came to be in regard to the PHYSICAL man, including the Law Covenant, for that is what Adam 'sold' us into slavery TO: the PHYSICAL realm, with its laws and boundaries. THIS flesh must eat, drink, sleep, expell waste, breath air, age, get sick, die... it MUST. It is enslaved.

    John 3:19-21

    However, the Christ came and GAVE UP such flesh... offered it as a sacrifice... so that we can get BACK to what God intended... what He made Adam into to begin with... flesh... with SPIRIT as its life force and not red hemoglobin. Red hemoglobin belongs to the EARTH, and thus must be and does return TO the earth. But the spirit... returns... to God.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7

    Do you think paradice was on earth?
    It was, and will be again. Did not my Lord tell the man on the tree/stake/pole next to him that he would be with him in the Garden of Eden? (Check your NWT Ref. Bible footnote.) And doesn't New Jerusalem come 'down out of heaven'... and does not Gog and Magog, who are on EARTH... 'encircle the holy city'? Does not God intend to bring together AGAIN... 'the things in the heavens AND the things on earth'? What started out as two realms circumventable by all became, due to Adam and Eve, two separate realms, both circumventable only by spirit beings and one enslaving physical beings.

    Thanks i have been trying to sort things out.
    You are quite welcome. I hope I have helped; I am your servant.

    I always thought the garment of skin was animal skin because he was ashamed of his nakedness because of sin.
    It wasn't. He was. And unfortunately, LIKE Adam, in whose 'image' we are made, MOST of us don't GET that it ain't our flesh and its 'sin' or 'uncleanness' (sickness, aging, weaknesses, etc.) that God 'hates', but the 'sin' of our HEARTS... and ITS 'uncleanness'. That is why my Lord condemned NONE who sinned under the Law Covenant by means of their flesh, but condemned those whose HEARTS... were 'wicked'.

    John 8:1-11
    John 4:16-18, 27
    Luke 7:36-50
    Matthew 23:13-39
    Matthew 15:18

    Because we are sinFUL, then, our flesh and even our hearts (which is 'desperate'), we need... a 'ransom'... and a 'saviour'. If I had never sinned, or could cease ALL sin, I would need no ransom, no saviour. But because I am a sinner, indeed a foremost one... all I have is faith IN a ransom... and in a saviour. I exercise faith in God and I exercise faith in the Saviour that He provided, so that when that One speaks to me, I 'hear'... and obey.

    Matthew 17:3
    Hebrews 12:25

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • singsongboi
    singsongboi

    who did that???????????

  • FrankRaven
    FrankRaven

    AGuest: It never ceases to amaze me how some folks like to hear and listen and never discernment what it applys too.When I was
    talking about Luke 24:39,I never used John 20:28 and never breathed a word about Thomas.John 20:28 is a different issue then Luke 24:39.
    You say you aren't a Witness,yet you use the same terminology,same manners,as I use to apply..I studied with Jehovah Witnessses from 1973 to 1987.They too would answer a question I never asked them.Besides,I believe truthfully,that Satan has blinded those who
    do desire to follow the WatchTower,then Christ.
    In 1Corinthians 2:11,12:2 Corinthians 4:2,3: talk of the hidden things of God which are those who desire the blinding of truth not of light.Yet John 14:26 tells us that the Holy Spirit teaches what one desires the light of truth.
    It is not so confusing when one reads of the mysteries of God and understands.1Timothy 3:16,"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness,'God was manifested in the flesh,Justified in the Spirit,Seen by angels,Preached among the Gentiles,Believed on in the world,Received up in glory.'"
    Again to understand the mystery of God is open for the Holy Spirit and whomever asked prayfully.As it's written in Romans 8:8-10.

    "It is not a form of religious persecution to say and
    to show that another religion is false
    as being false, thus allowing persons to see the
    difference between false religion and true religion."
    (Watchtower 11/15/63, p 688)
    RevFrank

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