Just The FACTS Please!!

by Unclepenn1 21 Replies latest jw friends

Unclepenn1

Well, I appreciate everyone's replies. To be honest, when I got on my computer this morning I expected to be slammed for the most part. What a pleasant surprise. Thanks
I do want to address a few things that were said, and I have to do it before I go to work, so I will not be writing another novel [hopefully].
Carmel wrote> Now! Can you in fairness give attribution to Islam? What was its contribution to civilization? I think many would be surprised to see the list especially in the fields of higher math (algebra, etc) medicine,
I am sure that I could. My point was not to say that other religions have not done good or advanced societies. My point was to refute some common misconceptions that I see in the thinking processes of many on this board. i.e. that Christianity is responsible for more bloodshed, yada, yada, yada.
Crownboy wrote>Of course, they've been no wars fought over "atheism" that I can think of, and I can think of many wars where religion is involved
Please refer back to my original post. Were wars fought 'over' atheism? Not exactly, but were they fought over the desire to promote it? Absolutely! Lenin, Stalin and Mao Tse Tung are responsible for killiing a combined total of over 100 million [of their own] people, all trying to promulgate their atheistic ideals [or lack there of]. To say that you cannot think of any wars regarding atheism is flawed IMO and contrary to the facts.
>>(BTW: Hitler was a Christain).
You see, it is comments like this that make me realize that few are familiar the teachings of Christ. Jesus said you would know HIs followers by their love. Hmm, something about killing 10 million people (6 of them being Jews) makes me think that the person in question is lacking in the love department. If you read Matt chp 13, you will see that the world is going to be filled with false converts, that God will weed out on judgement day. Anyone can say they are a Christian, but you will know the true ones by their behavior. To assert that Hitler is a Christian reveals to me that there is a serious misunderstanding about Christianity. If I go murder people and say that I am a Buddhist, does that mean the teachings of Buddha make people cause bloodshed?Of course not. Never judge a philosophy by its abuse.
1 John 4:20- If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
>>And like it or not, Uncle Penn, Christianity's treatment of women and children and minorities is no better than that of any other religious group.
Really? Ever flip through the channels and come across some program on the treatment of women in the middle East? Where the women have to walk 10 feet behind their hubands and their camels are treated better and respected more than women are? I think you made too broad of an assertion. There are many many cultures even today that treat women like dirt. Missionaries often go into cultures and teach them that women are equal in the sight of God.
>>Advances in the social and cultural humanities are taking place RIGHT NOW among ALL walks of life,
I am not saying that isn't so. My point was to refute some prior assertions. Thanks for responding.
Liberty wrote>>The same could be said of an individual, a person could be a Morman or a Moonie and that person may be brilliant and ethical.
Yes, many people of many faiths have done good. I wrote this because when Jesus gave the great commision to go into all the world, by doing this it has changed the way the world is, at least to some extent. You cannot refute the fact that in Africa, there are 500 languages that have a written form because of Christianity. It is a fact. You can say this or that about it, but all I am trying to do is give factual information about what the teachings of Christ have done for the world. I am not giving you my opinion.
> I'm sure you can now see the fallacy of your theory that Christianity is responsable for our culture's advancements.
No! I am not sure what you mean! I gave information and I gave references. Everyone else is making vague remarks about how other cultures and religions do good too. That's fine. I am just trying to defend the teachings of Jesus and provide information whenever possible. Gotta run:) Thank you everyone for responding. I enjoy our dialogue.
Penn
one

uncle,
for collective benefit, just a suggestion for the next time
can you first write an 'executive summary' and then the rest?
busy people may not feel like reading a long post unless...
Unclepenn1

Hey one, thanks for the advice. I really do appreciate it. Like I stated however, this was a continuation of a previous post. It was already being discussed on the other thread. I appreciate it thought. **smiles**
Penn
crownboy

Unclepenn said:
Crownboy wrote>Of course, they've been no wars fought over "atheism" that I can think of, and I can think of many wars where religion is involved
Please refer back to my original post. Were wars fought 'over' atheism? Not exactly, but were they fought over the desire to promote it? Absolutely! Lenin, Stalin and Mao Tse Tung are responsible for killiing a combined total of over 100 million [of their own] people, all trying to promulgate their atheistic ideals [or lack there of]. To say that you cannot think of any wars regarding atheism is flawed IMO and contrary to the facts.
C'mon, Penn. None of those wars were fought over "spreading atheism", the overriding reason for the wars was to give the people a better economic way of life. The atheism part of communism was related to the fact that religion was involved in subjucating people (i.e. :an immoral act), and that freeing oneself from religion and God was a necessary way to truely be free (I don't happen to be a communist and don't agree with this reasoning for not believing in God, though it certainly has some truth to it). Read the communist manifesto. Atheism was not supposed to result in an immoral society, but one that was infinitely more moral than the Christain "capitalist" one. You could argue that Stalin and other brutal dictators weren't living up to Marx's ideal, and therefore weren't "real communist" (like Hitler not being a "real Christain", right?). However, there simply is no proof that people were killed because people thought "there is no God, so now I'll kill because it's fun". Hitler believed in God and killed anyway, so you can't say Stalin killed because he didn't believe in God. (BTW: The numbers are rather large because China & Russia happen to be rather populous nations. I'm sure the Christain crusaders would have killed just as many "infidels" if the populations were as big back then, and the Catholic church as many "heretics" if those numbers existed).
If I go murder people and say that I am a Buddhist, does that mean the teachings of Buddha make people cause bloodshed?Of course not. Never judge a philosophy by its abuse.
Then stop stating "atheism" caused mass killings, when the reasons had nothing to do with theology.
You're also making my point, BTW. If you do go out and murder, you'll say Christanity is not responsible for it. If you don't, you won't give the credit to yourself for not doing so, but credit Christanity with your morals. If an atheist like Stalin kills many people, it's because of his atheism, but if Eugene Debbs forces America to make social reforms that better the life of the average man, I guess we can't credit atheism? In none of these cases is belief in God the reason for "doing good", the only difference is that when a theist does good, he thinks he's doing the will of some unseen deity, without whom his morals would disappear. Christanity does not change people, it allows good people to focus on the good parts of Christanity, and bad people to use the not so savory parts (e.g. its endorsement of slavery), to meet their ends. As far as Christanity endorsing the rights of women, perhaps you should look through the annals of the womens liberation movement, and see how many "unchristain" women (e.g.: atheists, gay people) were heavily involved in this noble cause, and how many Christain men were opposed. This was not an issue carried by "christain values", my friend.
In Christain parts of the globe, Christains have been responsible for many great things, and just as much bad things. In non-Christain parts of the globe, the same is true for non- Christains. Just about all your references of "Christain good" had to do with Christains undoing the bad that other Christains caused (even in Africa, "Christains" were responsible for many a mistreatment of the natives). If the bibles "message of good" was so obvious to these good people, it should have been to the rest of the people. The truth is good has little to do with if someone believes Jesus is God/ God's son or not. Why do atheist make up only 2 tenths of one percent of the U.S. prison population, while Christains are the majority? Because atheists are "more moral"? Obviously, the reason has nothing to do with God (U.S. atheists tend to be more educated and make more money than the general populace, so therefore the need to commit criminal acts isn't there). We would have great people in this world with or without Christains (but I'm not devaluing their accomplishments, though).
Sunchild

I know this is a bit of a tangent, but.... I'd probably have a lot more respect for Christianity and its adherents if the movement as a whole would simply own up to its mistakes. Not just the past ones like, say, the Inquisition and assorted witch burnings, but elements like the KKK, Fred Phelps and other extremist weirdoes acting "in the name of God" that no one wants to claim.
You can't solve a problem until someone takes responsibility for it. I think those less pleasant elements would be dealt with MUCH more efficiently if their more sensible counterparts would just stand up and say, "Yes, they're Christians. Bad ones, but they are still Christians. As such, we've got to deal with them because they're making us ALL look bad." But instead, it's always the same silly cop-out: saying "They're not really Christians" or "Not all of us are like that" and hoping it just goes away.
*Rochelle, going back to lurking now.
---------
"I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach."
-- Professor Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone.
Unclepenn1

CrownBoy, I appreciate the reply, and I am going to reply back, but just not tonight. I am too tired to write what I want to. I am, however, going to briefly address Sunchild.
Sunchild said > Not just the past ones like, say, the Inquisition and assorted witch burnings, but elements like the KKK, Fred Phelps and other extremist weirdoes acting "in the name of God" that no one wants to claim.
The reason I wouldnt call these people Christians is because they do not meet the Biblical mandate for what a Chrisitan is. They do not show love for mankind [let alone their enemies] and they behave in ways that are antithetical to the teachings of Christ. I have actually spoken to Fred Phelps and we had him on our radio show last year. He is filled with hatred and there was nothing about him that gave me the impression that he followed Jesus, other than his verbal profession. But what does scripture say? Jesus said 'No good tree can bear bad fruit, and no bad tree can bear good fruit'. Guess what? Fred Phelps is a bad tree bearing bad fruit. To say that I should own up to him as a Christian, or some KKK racists, is to ignore what the BIble says Christians really are. Does that make sense? I hope so, cause it is crystal clear to me.
Warm regards,
Penn
Unclepenn1

>>Read the communist manifesto. Atheism was not supposed to result in an immoral society, but one that was infinitely more moral than the Christain "capitalist" one.
I am not saying that atheism equals an immoral society, sorry if that is the way I came across. My point was that when someone attacks Christianity and says that 'more bloodhsed has been caused by religion....." I like to make things clear, and I think to drive the point home, discussion of the absence of religion and it's effects does good to prove this point. I am in no way suggesting that atheism causes immorality, but the abscence of believing in a higher form of justice causes some people[ obviously these particular communist leaders] to make themselves God, exterminatinig others for whatever reasons, lack of conformity, race, religion, et al.
If I go murder people and say that I am a Buddhist, does that mean the teachings of Buddha make people cause bloodshed?Of course not. Never judge a philosophy by its abuse.
>>Then stop stating "atheism" caused mass killings, when the reasons had nothing to do with theology.
I will concede your point.
>>As far as Christanity endorsing the rights of women, perhaps you should look through the annals of the womens liberation movement, and see how many "unchristain" women (e.g.: atheists, gay people) were heavily involved in this noble cause, and how many Christain men were opposed. This was not an issue carried by "christain values", my friend.
I am sure there are some non Christian women that have done good for the cause of women, atheism and homosexuality have done a lot to further the womens lib movement in this country. Can you point me to some who work and live with forgotten tribes in Africa or who spent dozens of years freeing women from cultures that kept them as slaves? I am sure you could point me to a couple. I do not think it is the norm though. The women you speak of, have I assume, done some things *in this country* to further womens rights. But on a global scale, I am just not seeing it.
>>Just about all your references of "Christain good" had to do with Christains undoing the bad that other Christains caused (even in Africa, "Christains" were responsible for many a mistreatment of the natives).
I spent a lot of time writing my piece and gave plenty of references to back it up. Could you provide me with some factual information regarding this? I am not doubting you, I would just like to discover this for myself.
>>>Why do atheist make up only 2 tenths of one percent of the U.S. prison population, while Christains are the majority?

As far as saying that prisons are filled with Christians, that's becasue people say they are Christians when they have nothing to do with Christ. Before I was saved I was a drug addict and slept with whoever I wanted. If someone were taking a poll and walked up to me and asked me if I were religious, I would have said yes, Christian [I grew up Catholic]. There are a billion people that say they are Christian. SO WHAT! The men in prison are obviously not following Christ becasue if they were they wouldnt be in prison. .HELLO! I will never go to prison because I serve God. The only way would be if I were in there for Him.
>>(U.S. atheists tend to be more educated and make more money than the general populace, so therefore the need to commit criminal acts isn't there).
Thats is simply just a fallacious argument.
You seem very intelligent CrownBoy, and I appreciate the dialogue. Why Bart Simpson? I love the Simpsons, but I think you would do better with an icon that more relfected who you are. Just a thought.
Take care,
Penn
crownboy

Thanks for the reply Penn.
I am not saying that atheism equals an immoral society, sorry if that is the way I came across. My point was that when someone attacks Christianity and says that 'more bloodhsed has been caused by religion....." I like to make things clear, and I think to drive the point home, discussion of the absence of religion and it's effects does good to prove this point. I am in no way suggesting that atheism causes immorality, but the abscence of believing in a higher form of justice causes some people[ obviously these particular communist leaders] to make themselves God, exterminatinig others for whatever reasons, lack of conformity, race, religion, et al.
Well, I see your point, and that may very well be true, but I doubt that the non-belief in God had anything explicitly to do with their actions. If you look at history, both contemporary and past, there have been many dictators, many theists, who engage in such behaviour. Normally, a theist would declare that God was on their side and therefore they were morally justified in their action. But even in this case, I would not declare that God was per se the reason why the person acted the way they did. Some people just have no regard for human life, plain and simple. Belief in God (Christain or otherwise), or non belief usually will not reform the behaviour of certain people. If someone wants to do something they'll do it regardless, a person like Stalin may indeed reason that he is some kind of "God", and a person like Hitler would simply reason that their God backs their action. There are simply too many examples of theist leaders leading mass murders throughout history to make me believe that belief in God makes a person less likely to hold human life in high regard, or being atheist makes it easier. Both do it with ease since both have rationalized their crimes.
Indeed, many Christains have worked hard to improve the life of less fortunate people, including the women of Africa. I applaud such efforts. What I was referring to in my post was the treatment of women as second class citizens in Christain nations. I happen to think that many passages in the bible hold women in lower regard than men, and during the early days of the womens lib. movement (and even today, I venture to guess), many Christain theologians thought it was dangerous or sinful for women to want the equal status of men, since they should be "submissive". My point was, that though Christain women were involved (though as I pointed out many "unchristain" types play a key role), it wasn't a truly "christain" issue, as one could argue that at best the bible is silent on the issue, or at worst, as some theolgians thought, the bible commands women to be "submissive" to men. However, much "props" to the Christains who work with the Africans to better their lives.
You want references for Christains undoing Christain work? Here goes. You said that Christains stopped the persecution of witches? Who were the people who started it? You say Christains helped stop slavery. What was the religion of the people promulgating it in Christain nations? (And what religious book endorses the practice?) Who caused guys like Luther to reform Christanity in the first place? Basically, this shows that good people can be found in any group, and evil in any group as well. God mearly becomes a tool to meet an agenda (even when good results) in most cases.
As far as saying that prisons are filled with Christians, that's becasue people say they are Christians when they have nothing to do with Christ.
Man, Christains love to "punt away" their bad guys . I understand where you are coming from, but once again you are making my point. Christanity (and other belief systems) mean different things to different people. For a person like yourself, who's looking to do good anyway (I don't know you, but I'll assume you don't steal candy from babies, etc. ), you'll look at all the great stuff like "love your neighbor", etc. and live by it. One who likes to condemn people will focus on Christanity's message of damnation for the "non believers", etc. People find reasons to justify behaviours, we simply make our belifs justify these ends.
Congrats on cleaning up your life, BTW. I'd surmise that the reason you are where you are today simply has to do with the fact that you wanted to do better for yourself, and Christanity (or your interpretation of it) happened to jive with your changed philosophy in life. You'd probably say the Christain message specifically "saved" you. I say if all the work has to be done by a person, then it is by their own accord that their actions were changed, and not because "God saved them". To get back to the main point, real Christanity seems to change from person to person, and I'm sure many in prison are quite sincere in their beliefs, but ultimately actions come down to reasons other than whether we believe in a diety or not.
U.S. atheists tend to be more educated and make more money than the general populace, so therefore the need to commit criminal acts isn't there).
Thats is simply just a fallacious argument.
Can't see how. People who commit the most crimes tend to be poor and uneducated (or at least richer people tend not to go to jail). I've read in several sources (though I can't give you specific reference), that were pretty offical studies, that a higher percentage of U.S. atheists have college degrees, and their average income is well above the U.S. average (I believe 4th after Unitarians, agnostics and another group. There was a thread on this very forum a while back that linked these stats to some government study). Educated people with high incomes tend to commit less crimes, hence the lower numbers. People commit crimes mainly for economic reasons, and not reasons of piety.
You seem very intelligent CrownBoy, and I appreciate the dialogue. Why Bart Simpson? I love the Simpsons, but I think you would do better with an icon that more relfected who you are. Just a thought.
Why, thanks Penn. You also seem very intelligent, and your theistic arguments are definitely among the best in this forum. You don't get all "fire and brimstone" on me .
I love the Simpsons! It's a show I've grown up on (I'm 20 years old), and though my TV taste have "refined" over time (imagine a guy my age who actually will watch C-SPAN ), this is one show I'll probably enjoy even at your age (j/k ). The icon is mainly a tribute to the show, I guess, but I could change it in the future.
Unclepenn1

OK, I want to make just a couple of comments and then try and put this thing to bed. I have spent too much time in front of this glowing box already
You wrote>>You want references for Christains undoing Christain work? Here goes. You said that Christains stopped the persecution of witches? Who were the people who started it? You say Christains helped stop slavery. What was the religion of the people promulgating it in Christain nations? (And what religious book endorses the practice?)
Great question! Where does the Bible tell me to go torture people if they do not believe the gospel? Where does it say to have a slave if you want? Answer? Nowhere! Paul lists slavetrading as a practice equalled with liars and perverts.
(1 Tim 1:9-10)We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
Whats's the poiint? Stop saying that we Christians 'punt' away those that proclaim Christ but act in opposition to Him. It is a unfounded assertion. I do not punt away any brother. I punt away those who claim to follow Christ but to not bear fruit in concert with knowing HIm. A Christian is not merely someone who says 'I am a Christian'. We live in America, everyone in prison had some form of exposure to Christianity. You cannot say that prisons are full of Christians, because like the example I gave you with myself, I would have said the same.
And as far as my life now goes, I did not one day deicde "I will become a Christian'. I believed the gospel and God changed me from the inside out. I did not suddenly become moral and follow all the rules. God changed my heart and put in me a desire to do good and live for Him. He saved me from my sin and from His judgement that my sin deserves.
Penn
BTW, Did you see Phish on the Simpsons a few weeks ago? Do you know who they are? I will have to agreee that that show is probably the most consistently funny of any other I can think of. I love the Homer character. SO true!
dungbeetle

When we were Witnesses, we believed the whitewashed version of Watchtower history that was passed on toi us, and we passed it on to others. Now we have to live with that as best we can.
Being Christians, we believed the whitewashed version of Christian history that was passed on to us, and we passed it on to others. Now we have to live with that as best we can.
Good people do good things, bad people do bad things.

An obsession with the 'good' history of Christianity or the
'bad' history of other religious forms of expression just takes time and energy away from good works that can be done NOW.
Christianity has whitewashed their history becasue that's what humans do. Humans also go back and fix things sometimes.
At least I hope so.
UADNA-US (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-United States)

Just The FACTS Please!!

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