1914 - "A Turning Point In History"?

by Bobcat 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Steve:

    I agree that every event has some effect on the future ('every action has an equal and opposite reaction'?). And the bigger/more significant the event, the likely bigger/more significant the effect.

    Yet, looking at it simply from the framework set out by Paul in Acts 17:30, 31, all the events that have happened amongst humans since Jesus' resurrection are nothing more than the countdown to the " day in which [God] purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness." WWI and 1914 become just another one of the string of events that comprise that countdown.

    I liked the idea I expressed above because it slams into the WT's lying doctrine on terms JWs might appreciate. And it does so without being openly contrary. 'WWI can be a turning point if you want, BUT this one (Acts 17:30, 31) is far more significant.' And after thinking about it some, it opens the possibility of rendering 1914 irrelevant in their mind. At the very least, it is interesting to see their reaction to it. It would be interesting to see a householder bring this up when offered the magazine in FS.

    ADCMS:

    Thanks for the points showing WWI was not such a surprise. H. G. Wells had similar thoughts in his Outline of History (esp. chapter 39).

    PS to those who still report Field Service time:

    I would suggest counting any time used to discuss this with JWs because in the truest sense you are conveying the 'good news' of the NT to those who don't fully understand it.

    Take Care

  • ablebodiedman
    ablebodiedman

    So where does WWI and 1914 fit into this depiction of human history?

    It is my conviction that 1914 is yet another turning point prior to "C" and yet after "B".

    When Jesus Christ was ressurrected this happened:

    Psalm 110:1-2

    The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:

    "Sit at my right hand

    Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."

      2  The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:]

    "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."

    Jesus Christ "sits" for a period of time.

    There comes and end to that period of time as directly stated in the scripture above:

    "Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."

    I believe the "sitting" stopped when this scripture in Revelation Chapter 12 was fulfilled:

    Revelation 12:10-12

    "Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11  And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12  On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."

    "because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down" - "Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."

    The significance of 1914 is that Jesus Christ is no longer "sitting".

    So 1914 "fits" after period "B" and yet we are still before period "C".

    A scriptural milestone happens in between the two periods you indicated.

    The Apostle Paul also acknowledged this milestone event that was to happen in the future:

    Hebrews 10:12-13

     But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13  from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.

    So yes, 1914 is "A Turning Point In History"

    Jesus Christ is no longer "waiting".

    abe

  • kepler
    kepler

    Bobcat,

    Good to see your posts once in a while. I get the feeling you live your life trying to make lemonade out of the basket of lemons delivered to your door. And may you succeed. But since you brought the proposition up, allow me to ruminate.

    From my perspective, I am not an historian, but I enjoy looking at history and analyzing it. It seems like every time I pick up a used book in a bookstore I discover another segment of history that I had never noticed before. Lately, it's been a combination of reading Gibbon and some of the writers that parallel his work. And then coming up from submersion once in a while, I re-acquaint myself with people still trying to extract cult meaning out of 1914- October to be exact, only the guy who came up with this apocalyptic General Relativity is discredited by his own organization...

    Einstein and Russell, I get images confused. He's lecturing at a blackboard about history and then someone comes in with a telegram to announce in October, 1914 that his calculations about 1914 are confirmed. This knowlegde came via an occultation of a star by the sun (was it Alcyone in the Pleiades?) or repeated re-measurement of Great Pyramid passage lengths, - or possibly even the Bible based on references to "this generation".

    Is it needless to say that 1914 seems like just another event in what Gibbon described of history as "little more than the register of the crimes, follies and misfortunes of mankind?"

    Well, OK. So what's a turning point of history? What is a color in the rainbow? And how many are there? My boxes of crayons used to have eight; six minus black and white? Is that the right answer? But they also made bigger boxes with more colors...

    How many dimensions does history have? And how many ways can it turn?

    I'd say that WWI was pretty rough on monarchy, the European playground and on those that had an opportunity to participate in it directly. Then again, you have events like 1812 and 1941 which were experienced by Russia - and the United States. Each had their own perspective on these. Napoleon was the possible anti-Christ to Lev Tolstoy's characters in War and Peace from the start ( it kept Tolstoy ruminating on history's mechanisms throughout - interesting, by the way), but in the United States Napoleon was the guy who sold the Louisiana Territory to the country at bargain basement rates - and in 1812, Russia's ally England had just burned down the capital just like Napoleon did to Moscow. Or did it catch on fire? Well.

    I attended a Memorial one time, and someone in the Congregation got up to explain how the world was getting much worse all the time, reading a list of statistics. I guess it better be getting worse, because that individual certainly had a vested interest in it. It didn't end the last time or the time before that, but maybe this time. And if anyone tries to improve the world, that would be interfering with history, right? The divine plan?

    And just in passing, if I actually were to accept all this "and live forever here on paradise earth and see all my old dead friends and relatives"...

    What if they weren't Jehovah's Witnesses either? How would that affect things?

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Significant only to the Watchtower Corporation in creating a fictitious year and selling it to the public.

    .....and how insignificant the year will become when the WTS. drops the year out of its doctrinal epistemology.

    .

    The open question remains, why didn't all the other professionally trained bible theologians in the world support this

    assertion of that year of having monumental importance ?

    Because they weren't owners or executive directers of a publishing house ...... the short of it all.

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    the whole 607-1914 "Gentile Times" nonsense wasn't even original to Russell. He plagarized it from the Adventists and JA Brown, stapled the WT label on it and called it his.

    .

    the blind leading the hopelessly deluded....

    " it is a travesty of a mockery of a sham." -unknown

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    I think J Rutherford hung on to the year as something marketable toward his own literature proliferation

    in spite of Pooh Poohing Russell's previous Pyramid ideology to arrive at the supposed end of the Gentile times.

    WW1 did start in that year lucky for him, which he also used to substantiate the year into something of sigificance..

    .

    The Truth of the matter is nations rising against nations actually happened historically in biblical times,

    but RutherFraud wouldn't be intellectually honest about that for obvious reasons.

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    AbleBodiedMan:

    My thoughts on Psalm 110:1, 2 are partly in agreement with you.

    Speaking of Jesus, the anonymous writer of Hebrews states:

    • (Hebrews 10:12, 13) . . .But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. (See also Hebrews 1:3) The writer is, of course, referring to how he undrstands the fulfillment of Psalm 110:1.

    He speaks of Jesus as already sitting at God's right hand and awaiting until his enemies are subdued. The writer places the "sacrifice for sins" as a past event, and the 'sitting down at God's right hand' as an already ongoing event. So we are in agreement on this much.

    Here is where we differ:

    • (Hebrews 2:5-9) . . .For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But a certain witness has given proof somewhere, saying: “What is man that you keep him in mind, or [the] son of man that you take care of him? 7 You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 8 All things you subjected under his feet.” For in that he subjected all things to him [God] left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him; 9 but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].

    The writer of Hebrews understood Jesus to be already "crowned." His 'sitting at God's right hand' is as ruler of God's Kingdom. But the writer also points out (in verse 8) that this is prior to "all things [being] in subjection to him."

    Similarly, the writer of Colossians (Paul) writes:

    • (Colossians 1:13) . . .He [God] delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love,

    Paul saw Jesus as already having a kingdom that people could be "transferred" into.

    And referring again to Psalm 110, the writer of Corinthians says:

    • (1 Corinthians 15:24-26) . . .Next, the end, when he [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he [Jesus] must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.

    So compare:

    • (Hebrews 10:12, 13) . . .But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.

    with

    • (1 Corinthians 15:25) For he [Jesus] must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet.

    The 1 Corinthians text replaces "sitting at God's right hand" with "rule as king."

    These lead me to believe that Jesus began ruling shortly after he returned to heaven. And that he continues to do so until sometime after the last enemy "death" is subdued, which, based on Revelation 21:1-4 and observation of the current human condition, is sometime yet in the future. Based on that, there are no "turning points" for Jesus between the start of his rule, after returning to heaven (c. 33 C.E.), and the end of it (sometime in the future), when he has conquered all his enemies, only a continuous string of victories.

    The Revelation text (12:12), which refers to a time when it would be said, ". . .Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ. . .," would have to correspond with when Jesus recieved his "authority."

    If I remember correctly, he told his disciples that he had received "all authority in heaven and on the earth" shortly after being resurrected. (Matthew 28:18) This would match up nicely with Paul's idea that Jesus was already 'ruling as king' while he awaits for all his enemies to be subdued.

    Satan's ouster from heaven, depicted in Revelation 12, happening shortly after Jesus returned there (compare Revelation 12:5), would also correspond nicely with the fact that Jesus, while on earth, said that would be an event then soon to take place, and linked it with his death:

    • (John 12:31, 32) . . . Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw men of all sorts to me.

    Also note that Satan's ouster from heaven is connected to his having been an "accuser of our brothers." (Revelation 12:10) This post cites several verses by Paul indicating that no one then was in a position to "accuse" Christians. This makes a lot of sense if Satan has already been cast out of heaven in the 1st century, as described in Revelation 12:7-12.

    At any rate, that, and the links at the bottom of my original post, forms my current 'opinion' on this topic.

    Take Care (and sorry for the length of the post)

  • designs
    designs

    Data- first you have to establish that some eschatology is The correct one and that's impossible to do with the NT. And yes I was JW, 3rd generation.

  • ablebodiedman
    ablebodiedman

    Bobcat,

    I can completely agree that Jesus Christ is king of his kingdom and that all authority was given him upon his ressurection.

    A king can still sit on his throne and wait.

    A time period for this "waiting" can still be applied to a person who is already a king.

    Your quoting this verse above however, suggests that you think period "C" has already started as well:

    (John 12:31, 32) . . . Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw men of all sorts to me.

    If you don't think the judging has already started then you need to consider how you are interpreting the word "now" in the scripture.

    I am convinced that Satan's casting out of heaven occured not long before 1914 and is the evidence I looked for (and found) in order to determine the veracity of 1914 as being a historic turning point.

    The reason why I beleive it was shortly before is because of what Revelation 12 says:

    "Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!

    Because is underlined as it suggests the casting out has to happen first. (befor 1914?)

    The Watchtower magazines however say that the "casting out" happened AFTER 1914 so I started out already having differences of opinion to the WTBTS.

    I resolved all the controversy over the 1914 date in my own mind by using a very unique method to search for evidence I felt MUST be somewhere in the public record if 1914 had any veracity at all. Thankfully it was at a time when google had just become available and searches through the "public record" had become possible for anyone with a computer and Internet connection. Prior to that I do not think my method would have been feasable.

    All this I did while still being considered a JW in "good standing".

    I discuss it in this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTKjvInShZQ

    abe

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Abe:

    Thanks for expressing your view. I'll make time to watch the video.

    Take Care

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