Free Will - What a Joke !

by cookiemaster 36 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Badfish
    Badfish

    If you really want to blow a JWs mind, get into a discusion about free will in the new world, (after the 1000 years is over).

    Ask them what will happen when people sin (like Adam and Eve did) after a few million years. They will initially give you a "does not compute" look but if you have a bit of patience they don't like it at all. It basially means people are going to be executed in the new system if they violate the rules, just like Adam and Eve.

    And they know it will happen so it caused the hamster wheel to start spinning.

    I asked a JW relative of mine that same question. She said they would instantly be put to death. I said, but I thought Relelation 21 said that "death will be no more." She said that's a different kind of death. I said how so? She said the type of death that will be no more is death resulting from sin. I was like, but my question was what happens when someone decides to sin in the New System. They do have free will don't they? They could choose to sin if they want. She was like, I meant Adamic death. In other words, inherited sin.

    It went on and on and i could never get anywhere with her.

  • billythekid46
    billythekid46

    Is it just the JW’s to speak of free will, or does religion as a whole do that. If free will is impossible to comprehend, perhaps religion is not for you. Then you can choose either atheism or evolution as a better prospect, since JW’s is not the only religion to speak of free will. The WT does not make the rules, God does. So to blaspheme, it is not the WT that you’re talking against, its GOD. People in a daily bases are pushed to accept rules once they leave their dwelling and at times even within, it’s no different who the messenger is unless like 1 of the post said, live free embrace Satan and when its time to go, just go. If you don’t understand resurrection then it really doesn’t matter, we just move on. Former witness

    Free will in ancient philosophy

    The question of free will does not seem to have presented itself very clearly to the early Greek philosophers. Some historians have held that the Pythagoreans must have allotted a certain degree of moral freedom to man, from their recognition of man's responsibility for sin with consequent retribution experienced in the course of the transmigration of souls. The Eleatics adhered to a pantheistic monism, in which they emphasized the immutability of one eternal unchangeable principle so as to leave no room for freedom. Democritus also taught that all events occur by necessity, and the Greek atomists generally, like their modern representatives, advocated a mechanical theory of the universe, which excluded all contingency. With Socrates, the moral aspect of all philosophical problems became prominent, yet his identification of all virtue with knowledge and his intense personal conviction that it is impossible deliberately to do what one clearly perceives to be wrong, led him to hold that the good, being identical with the true, imposes itself irresistibly on the will as on the intellect, when distinctly apprehended. Every man necessarily wills his greatest good, and his actions are merely means to this end. He who commits evil does so out of ignorance as to the right means to the true good. Plato held in the main the same view. Virtue is the determination of the will by the knowledge of the good; it is true freedom. The wicked man is ignorant and a slave. Sometimes, however, Plato seems to suppose that the soul possessed genuine free choice in a previous life, which there decided its future destiny. Aristotle disagrees with both Plato and Socrates, at least in part. He appeals to experience. Men can act against the knowledge of the true good; vice is voluntary. Man is responsible for his actions as the parent of them. Moreover his particular actions, as means to his end, are contingent, a matter of deliberation and subject to choice. The future is not all predictable. Some events depend on chance. Aristotle was not troubled by the difficulty of prevision on the part of his God. Still his physical theory of the universe, the action he allots to the noûs poietkós, and the irresistible influence exerted by the Prime Mover make the conception of genuine moral freedom in his system very obscure and difficult. The Stoics adopted a form of materialistic Pantheism. God and the world are one. All the world's movements are governed by rigid law. Unvaried causality unity of design, fatalistic government, prophecy and foreknowledge--all these factors exclude chance and the possibility of free will. Epicurus, oddly in contrast here with his modern hedonistic followers, advocates free will and modifies the strict determinism of the atomists, whose physics he accepts, by ascribing to the atoms a clinamen, a faculty of random deviation in their movements. His openly professed object, however, in this point as in the rest of his philosophy, is to release men from the fears caused by belief in irresistible fate.

    Free will and the Christian religion

    The problem of free will assumed quite a new character with the advent of the Christian religion. The doctrine that God has created man, has commanded him to obey the moral law, and has promised to reward or punish him for observance or violation of this law, made the reality of moral liberty an issue of transcendent importance. Unless man is really free, he cannot be justly held responsible for his actions, any more than for the date of his birth or the colour of his eyes. All alike are inexorably predetermined for him. Again, the difficulty of the question was augmented still further by the Christian dogma of the fall of man and his redemption by grace. St. Paul, especially in his Epistle to the Romans, is the great source of the Catholic theology of grace.

    Catholic doctrine

    Among the early Fathers of the Church, St. Augustine stands pre-eminent in his handling of this subject. He clearly teaches the freedom of the will against the Manichæeans, but insists against the Semipelagians on the necessity of grace, as a foundation of merit. He also emphasizes very strongly the absolute rule of God over men's wills by His omnipotence and omniscience--through the infinite store, as it were, of motives which He has had at His disposal from all eternity, and by the foreknowledge of those to which the will of each human being would freely consent. St. Augustine's teaching formed the basis of much of the later theology of the Church on these questions, though other writers have sought to soften the more rigorous portions of his doctrine. This they did especially in opposition to heretical authors, who exaggerated these features in the works of the great African Doctor and attempted to deduce from his principles a form of rigid predeterminism little differing from fatalism. The teaching of St. Augustine is developed by St. Thomas Aquinas both in theology and philosophy. Will is rational appetite. Man necessarily desires beatitude, but he can freely choose between different forms of it. Free will is simply this elective power. Infinite Good is not visible to the intellect in this life. There are always some drawbacks and deficiencies in every good presented to us. None of them exhausts our intellectual capacity of conceiving the good. Consequently, in deliberate volition, not one of them completely satiates or irresistibly entices the will. In this capability of the intellect for conceiving the universal lies the root of our freedom. But God possesses an infallible knowledge of man's future actions. How is this prevision possible, if man's future acts are not necessary? God does not exist in time. The future and the past are alike ever present to the eternal mind as a man gazing down from a lofty mountain takes in at one momentary glance all the objects which can be apprehended only through a lengthy series of successive experiences by travellers along the winding road beneath, in somewhat similar fashion the intuitive vision of God apprehends simultaneously what is future to us with all it contains. Further, God's omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe. How is this secured without infringement of man's freedom? Here is the problem which two distinguished schools in the Church--both claiming to represent the teaching, or at any rate the logical development of the teaching of St. Thomas--attempt to solve in different ways. The heresies of Luther and Calvin brought the issue to a finer point than it had reached in the time of Aquinas, consequently he had not formally dealt with it in its ultimate shape, and each of the two schools can cite texts from the works of the Angelic Doctor in which he appears to incline towards their particular view.

    Thomist and Molinist theories

    The Dominican or Thomist solution, as it is called, teaches in brief that God premoves each man in all his acts to the line of conduct which he subsequently adopts. It holds that this premotive decree inclines man's will with absolute certainty to the side decreed, but that God adapts this premotion to the nature of the being thus premoved. It argues that as God possesses infinite power He can infallibly premove man--who is by nature a free cause--to choose a particular course freely, whilst He premoves the lower animals in harmony with their natures to adopt particular courses by necessity. Further, this premotive decree being inevitable though adapted to suit the free nature of man, provides a medium in which God foresees with certainty the future free choice of the human being. The premotive decree is thus prior in order of thought to the Divine cognition of man's future actions. Theologians and philosophers of the Jesuit School, frequently styled Molinists, though they do not accept the whole of Molina's teaching and generally prefer Francisco Suárez's exposition of the theory, deem the above solution unsatisfactory. It would, they readily admit, provide sufficiently for the infallibility of the Divine foreknowledge and also for God's providential control of the world's history; but, in their view, it fails to give at the same time an adequately intelligible account of the freedom of the human will. According to them, the relation of the Divine action to man's will should be conceived rather as of a concurrent than of a premotive character; and they maintain that God's knowledge of what a free being would choose, if the necessary conditions were supplied, must be deemed logically prior to any decree of concurrence or premotion in respect to that act of choice. Briefly, they make a threefold distinction in God's knowledge of the universe based on the nature of the objects known--the Divine knowledge being in itself of course absolutely simple. Objects or events viewed merely as possible, God is said to apprehend by simple intelligence (simplex intelligentia). Events which will happen He knows by vision (scientia visionis). Intermediate between these are conditionally future events--things which would occur were certain conditions fulfilled. God's knowledge of this class of contingencies they term scientia media. For instance Christ affirmed that, if certain miracles had been wrought in Tyre and Sidon, the inhabitants would have been converted. The condition was not realized, yet the statement of Christ must have been true. About all such conditional contingencies propositions may be framed which are either true or false--and Infinite Intelligence must know all truth. The conditions in many cases will not be realized, so God must know them apart from any decrees determining their realization. He knows them therefore, this school holds, in seipsis, in themselves as conditionally future events. This knowledge is the scientia media, "middle knowledge", intermediate between vision of the actual future and simple understanding of the merely possible. Acting now in the light of this scientia media with respect to human volitions, God freely decides according to His own wisdom whether He shall supply the requisite conditions, including His co-operation in the action, or abstain from so doing, and thus render possible or prevent the realization of the event. In other words, the infinite intelligence of God sees clearly what would happen in any conceivable circumstances. He thus knows what the free will of any creature would choose, if supplied with the power of volition or choice and placed in any given circumstances. He now decrees to supply the needed conditions, including His corcursus, or to abstain from so doing. He thus holds complete dominion and control over our future free actions, as well as over those of a necessary character. The Molinist then claims to safeguard better man's freedom by substituting for the decree of an inflexible premotion one of concurrence dependent on God's prior knowledge of what the free being would choose. If given the power to exert the choice. He argues that he exempts God more clearly from all responsibility for man's sins. The claim seems to the present writer well founded; at the same time it is only fair to record on the other side that the Thomist urges with considerable force that God's prescience is not so understandable in this, as in his theory. He maintains, too, that God's exercise of His absolute dominion over all man's acts and man's entire dependence on God's goodwill are more impressively and more worthily exhibited in the premotion hypothesis. The reader will find an exhaustive treatment of the question in any of the Scholastic textbooks on the subject.

    Free will and the Protestant Reformers

    A leading feature in the teaching of the Reformers of the sixteenth century, especially in the case of Luther and Calvin, was the denial of free will. Picking out from the Scriptures, and particularly from St. Paul, the texts which emphasized the importance and efficacy of grace, the all-ruling providence of God, His decrees of election or predestination, and the feebleness of man, they drew the conclusion that the human will, instead of being master of its own acts, is rigidly predetermined in all its choices throughout life. As a consequence, man is predestined before his birth to eternal punishment or reward in such fashion that he never can have had any real free-power over his own fate. In his controversy with Erasmus, who defended free will, Luther frankly stated that free will is a fiction, a name which covers no reality, for it is not in man's power to think well or ill, since all events occur by necessity. In reply to Erasmus's "De Libero Arbitrio", he published his own work, "De Servo Arbitrio", glorying in emphasizing man's helplessness and slavery. The predestination of all future human acts by God is so interpreted as to shut out any possibility of freedom. An inflexible internal necessity turns man's will whithersoever God preordains. With Calvin, God's preordination is, if possible, even more fatal to free will. Man can perform no sort of good act unless necessitated to it by God's grace which it is impossible for him to resist. It is absurd to speak of the human will "co-operating" with God's grace, for this would imply that man could resist the grace of God. The will of God is the very necessity of things. It is objected that in this case God sometimes imposes impossible commands. Both Calvin and Luther reply that the commands of God show us not what we can do but what we ought to do. In condemnation of these views, the Council of Trent declared that the free will of man, moved and excited by God, can by its consent co-operate with God, Who excites and invites its action; and that it can thereby dispose and prepare itself to obtain the grace of justification. The will can resist grace if it chooses. It is not like a lifeless thing, which remains purely passive. Weakened and diminished by Adam's fall, free will is yet not destroyed in the race (Sess. VI, cap. i and v).

  • OneGenTwoGroups
    OneGenTwoGroups

    This is one of many key questions about life that the Bible is silent on.

    1,500 pages of fine print in the Bible and there is not even a paragraph of discussion of this subject. Why is that? The dudes that wrote most of the BS that fills these pages were Bronze age goat hearders in Palestine who weren't real deep thinkers, they were slave owning, patriarchal, animal sacrificers.

    Mob boss is good way to illustrate Jerkhovah's role in the universe.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    This is why I advise people to get rid of that LIE-ble. It is nothing more than witchcraft used to enslave the masses. Notice all the fear the LIE-ble uses to get compliance. People are afraid to question that damnation book, lest they get hellfire. And obeying always results in giving away all your riches, suppressing your sexuality, and being treated as slaves. Turning the other cheek, giving to the poor (which this damn book created), and wasting your time on worshiping this nazarene are all advocated. As is the "need" for the nazarene to wash your "sins" clean, because of the extreme fear of your "sins" (in reality, your own nature with which you were created). How blatantly pro-slavery, philo-Semite, and anti-life this damnation book is, and yet people still call it "the good book". Good, my eye!

    And, even worse, there is a curse on the whole human race created by this book. You have a LIE-ble in your home, you are being tapped for this curse. Every LIE-ble makes that curse stronger. They wish to create a monster hurricane, your LIE-ble helps buff it toward a strong category 4 or even a 5, when it could have been a wimpy 1 or even a tropical storm. Man-made global warming and climate change--both directions--all part of this curse. Earthquakes--Christchurch, anyone? Haiti? Even disasters like 9/11. And that earthquake in Japan, which would have been a 7 but was buffed to a 9 plus tsunami by that curse. Don't believe me? Just look at the fear! Just look at how many times the LIE-ble contains passages that are against "the nations". From Joshua through Tyrant David, Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, the minor prophets, and scattered throughout the whole LIE-ble are pronouncements against "the nations". That's your curse! You have a LIE-ble, you are tying into that very curse. You need to look up a scripture, you can go online and look up what you need to without carrying this curse--rebutting that the witlesses are living up to their own holy book without tying into that massive curse.

    You want true free will? Who offered free will? If you still have your damnation book, it is blatantly offered by none other than Yours Truly, Satan. Joke-hova offered a death threat. Satan offered free will. No slavish obedience. No inherent "sin". No washtowel. And, for the record, Qurans are as bad--the same curse is in the Quran.

  • Bugbear
    Bugbear

    Whaouoo billythekid46, you must have copied all that from some student literature in the subject of History and Science. I like that.

    But the problem still has a more Philosophical perspective.

    The JW:s wait, The jewish waits, the Chatolic waits, the Muslims wait, The Pentacosts wait, The Lutherans wait………..

    As far as I know more ten 7 billion of the human race wait, for their deliverer their savior. They wait for somebody to release them from their present situation. They hope that a god or goddess, angels, or whatever will take them away to a better place!

    How good can it be to be waiting in the dentists waiting room when there is not dentist showing up?

    Bugbear

  • adamah
    adamah

    Badfish said- You have the free will to go out and commit a mass shooting tomorrow if you want, don't you? Or does the fact that if you do, you will most likely get life in prison if not the death penalty mean you don't have free will?

    Let's just preface the answer by saying, "DON'T commit mass shootings"!

    Since all secular authorities of the World have laws to discourage killing without going thru the pretenses of "due process" first, then NO, the fact you'd face the risk of capture and punishment means it's not a "free will" choice: an external force (the law) is trying to bias the decision away from ALL humans (atheists and believers, alike) from deciding to commit such acts.

    So instead of being considered a "free will" decision (thanks to LAWS!), a person possesses the "freedom of choice" to disobey (assuming they're free of mental illnesses, a mitigating factor when it comes to punishment). "Freedom of choice" implies that although a person could choose to make a very-poor decision, they cannot expect to be free of the consequences of their choice to disobey the law.

    That goes back to Adam and Eve NOT exercising 'free will' to eat the forbidden fruit, but the 'freedom of choice' to break the one rule the Bible records in the Genesis account (don't eat the fruit, or you will die).

    (Whether they had the ability to comprehend is another matter (I'd say they had 'diminished capacity' to understand the consequences of eating, since the story implies they made the decision AS fools!), which I discuss in this article:

    http://awgue.weebly.com/the-paradox-of-adam-and-eve-and-how-the-new-world-translation-fruitlessly-attempts-to-keep-it-hidden.html)

    But back to the question: the answer would also depend on who was killed in the 'mass shooting', since there's exceptions in Islamic/Mosaic law AND even secular law, where not all killing is prohibited, eg in U.S. Law, mass killing of the enemy combatant on the battlefield is not only allowed, we even give the soldiers medals for what in other circumstances would be prosecuted as mass murder.

    The Bible is full of examples of killing non-Jews and various pagans on the battlefield and off, and such killing didn't incur bloodguilt on the Jews who slayed others, since Jehovah ordered such killing.

    Fortunately, secular laws have curtailed such killing for the past 2,500 yrs, but as 9/11 shows, a few martyrs sometimes manage to kill others in the "Holy Wars" that's raging on in their minds.

  • galaxie
    galaxie

    Is it beneficial to delve into the bowels of history concerning ' free will' ,after all is it not the contemporary definition which steers our thinking of its application in times past e.g.man created with ' free will ' , or how a contemporary religion would define it e.g JWs?.

    Free...will is two parts:

    Will,.... using your own decision making faculties, what you want to happen, your own decisions upon which you can act without outside influence.....

    And.......FREE ...AT NO COST. Think about it its not rocket science!

    Laws, standards must be applied and considered when applying free will to work towards a harmonious fair society .We cant expect to have it all our own way

  • pontoon
    pontoon

    Just like saying Jeh is humble. How? He'll never be happy until all of mankind is praising, worshipping, thanking him for ever and if you don't you die. Humble god?? If you believe it all.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

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    ................................................................................WBT$ "Free Will"..

    ...........................................................Is Taught at WBT$ WatchTard Universitys..

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    ........BT$WBT$ WatchTard University..............................WatchTard Professors....................................WatchTard Class..

    . ..

    .

    .........................................................BT$WBT$ WatchTard Graduates..

    ...................................................................................................They`re going to let me be a..

    I forget Where I live........I can`t remember My Name............ Speed Bump at the Kingdom Hall..

    ......... ........................

    ....................................................................... photo mutley-ani1.gif ...OUTLAW

  • Hortenzie
    Hortenzie

    Free will is a myth. There are consequences for every choice we make.

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