Based on the info above id like to ask both the elder and my wife questions that make theM Squirm a bit...ive asked many questions before and i wasnt marked but id like to ask something a little more daring To what os contai ed in these paragraphs....i apologize for the absolute crap of a iob ive done with the thread so far lol
Need thought provoking question to In Gods Love Ch 16--warning: kinda long!
by DS211 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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punkofnice
3 In stark contrast, however, there are spirit creatures who observe those baptisms with fury.
What evidence is there that the Demons(TM) are in fury.....where does it say that in the Bible? Surely Demons(TM) are not that insane...if they were then Jehovah(TM) did a pretty awful job of not curing them? (Don't settle for anecdotes...ask to see the specific scriptures in total proof, not spin based on a cherry picked verse)
12 As long as we abhor spiritism, Satan will not succeed against us by using it. Hence, he realizes that he must change our thinking. How? He seeks ways to confuse Christians to the point that some will think that “good is bad and bad is good.” (Isaiah 5:20) To do so, Satan of- ten falls back on one of his time-tested methods—he raises questions to create doubts.
Best not mention old publications that had mystic symbols on. You'll only get some crap about Jesus purifying the org(R).
How does Satan(TM) raise questions today? Can you give me specific examples?(Then try not to laugh as they give crappy anecdotes).
I think the golden rule here is that if you get told an anecdote then demand scriptural proof direct from the Bible......observe where the verses are cherrypicked and check the context.
....says me an atheist
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DS211
Thanks punkofnice! Heres what the next paragraphs bring out about that--but wait did you notice?
It says Satan has pht spiritistic elements inhealth care....lol ok lets see how they answer.
EXPLOITING OUR DESIRES AND NEEDS
15 Especially in the Western world, occultism, witch- craft, and other forms of spiritism are taken more and more lightly. Movies, books, TV programs, and comput- er games increasingly portray demonistic practices as be- ing fun, smart, and harmless. Some movies and books with plots focusing on the occult have become so wildly popular that devotees have organized fan clubs. Clearly, the demons have succeeded in trivializing the dangers of the occult. Has this trend of taking spiritism lightly in- fluenced Christians? The thinking of some has been af- fected. In what way? To give a typical example, after one Christian watched a movie that centered on the occult, he said, “I saw the movie, but I didn’t practice spiritism.” Why is such reasoning dangerous?
16 Although there is a difference between actual- ly practicing spiritism and watching it, that surely does not mean that watching occult practices poses no dan- ger. Why not? Consider this: God’s Word indicates that neither Satan nor his demons have the ability to read our thoughts.
thoughts. Thus, as mentioned earlier, to find out what we are thinking and to detect any spiritual weakness in us, wicked spirits have to observe closely our actions—in- cluding our choice of entertainment. When a Christian’s behavior shows that he enjoys movies or books that cen- ter on spirit mediums, magic spells, acts of demon pos- session, or similar demonistic subjects, he is sending a message to the demons. In effect, he is alerting them to his weak spot! In response, the demons could intensi- fy their wrestling with that Christian in order to exploit the weakness he has revealed until they have pinned him down, so to speak. In fact, some whose interest in spirit- ism was first piqued by entertainment that prominently featured the occult have eventually become involved in actually practicing spiritism.—Galatians
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DS211
Ok now, how is it you are possessed if in fact Satans demons cannot read your thoughts? Ite the mind that causes all behaviours...in response to stimuli...but possessed implies some form of mind control right?
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DS211
One last thing for now (im sorry im taking advantage if free time at work! Its like recess!)
For questions if spiritistic questions see box page 194.
IS IT REALLY SPIRITISM?
Principle: “The works of the flesh are manifest, and they are . . . practice of spiritism, . . . divi- sions, sects . . . Those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.” —Galatians 5:19-21.
Some questions to ask yourself
ˇ Is any custom that I follow associated with false religious beliefs?—2 Corinthians 6:16, 17.
ˇ Are any objects that I use directly related to spiritistic practices?—Acts 19:19.
ˇ Does any medical treatment I seek involve some form of uncanny or magical power?—Leviticus 19: 26. (Really
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bohm
The problem with the passage is it is so full of assumptions it is hard to know where to begin. It is like talking to a illuminati/space-aliens-run-the-government/moon-is-a-giant-spacecraft/Nibiru/9-11-truther/hitler-was-the-good-guy/age-of-whatever guy, where one false idea is propped up by 2 other and it is very hard to get traction in reality as you go on the merry-go-around of wild ideas.
You know my spiritual inclinations, so i would properly just ask the simple question: "Whats the best reasons we have, firmly grounded in physical evidence, that any of this is true at all?" and go from there.
However since you are in and should not just try to win an argument, i would properly focus on more general question. I think one of the most important double standards to examine is how one should go about examining ones faith. For instance:
"how should people of other faiths or versions of christianity examine their faith critically?"
"by carefully examining scriptual arguments put forth by other religions (properly citing paul)"
"For instance by reading a book or brouchure made by them"
"yes"
"So I should apply this principle to myself by reading texts of other new testement scholars critical of my religion and carefully consider their argument?"
(no: some reason not to, we have the truth)
"Lets back up a bit. If a person, eg. a catholic feel he has the truth, he would be correct in applying that reasoning and not reading our critisism of his faith?"
(etc).
(yes: we should also examine our religion)
"So for instance by reading a book by eg. a catholic new testement scholar? or but does the society not strongly disencourage us to do so? or how should one approach the situation if one find questions that seem very hard to answer?"
and so on.
If you are interested in a question specific to the above passage, what always strike me is this: supposing all of this is true, that one of the important message from God is satan is running around and try to desieve people, why does God not make the fact as apparent and widely adverticed as it is cigerattes are unhealthy?
If I was trying to warn some people I loved that something was dangerous, and some of them even doubted that I or that which I tried to warn them about existed, I would call them or meet with them in person to make it very clear that was how I felt. They could then take or leave the advice, ofcourse, but I would see no reason not to make it clear that was my oppinion. God does nothing of the sort, rather he relies on religions (which at the very least has a 90%+ failure rate in telling the truth) to deliver his message; in terms of delivering messages through a trustworthy medium, it is the equivalent of an oppinion piece in a tabloid. Why?
Sorry if this has a to atheistic slant to it; I just feel it is very hard to discuss matters like if we should avoid spiritism because at the core of it, the answer is going to be "the bible is best interpreted by Gods organization, Jehovahs Witness is Gods organization, ergo this is the correct interpretation". The logic is good enough so one has to discuss the assumptions instead.
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KateWild
DS, if you agree with me, you could say something like.....
"Personally I don't thisnk demons and Satan are really all around us all the time. What influence do you believe they have?"
Allow them both to respond, hopefully you will get a least one farfetched response. While they are talking draw them out with questions like.......
I see, but in what way exactly?" to project a genuine inteterest in their comments.
Once they have both given you really over the top answers you can respond with something like...............
"What you say is in line with the bible and the publication, but it just seems a little far fetched to me. From my experience when people play with wizard plastic toys, or watch magic on telly nothing demonic has ocurred. In my experience demons have never interacted with me and I don't believe they ever will. Personally I believe that those who have stories embelish them for dramatic effect. I may change my mind in the future, but as of now I don't feel demons will be bothering me at all"
You can project a dissmissive feel to the presence of demons. Personally I don't think demons are real DS do you? Kate xx
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DS211
I the demons are a manifestation of human behaviour--an excuse as to WHY people display evil and an excuse for WHY people commit wrong...the blame is drawn from the person to an invisible spirit creature. Now the WT clearly says they cant see our thought and yet they say they are somehow controlling entertainment, medical expertise, etc etc.....well hich one isit? I have never had an experience with a demon directly...what i HAVE seen is the human minds manifestation of demons put on screen from his imagination which provokes fear and fear of that manifestation, in turn, could lead to events one may take as a demonic event. For instance i heard a story of a demonic picture that couldnt be burned, trolls with jewels in their belly somehow coming to life lol all induced by fear. And yet in their own publications they condemn such stories (in this very chapter): "Some people live, eat, work, and sleep in dread of wicked spirits. Stories about powerful acts of demons abound. Such stories are often told with relish; people are fascinated by them. Should we share in spreading such stories? No, servants of the true God avoid doing so for two important reasons. 20 First, by circulating stories about the exploits of the demons, one promotes the interests of Satan. How so? God’s Word confirms that Satan is capable of powerful works, but it also warns that he uses “lying signs” and “deception.” (2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10) Since Satan is the archdeceiver, he knows how to influence the minds of those who are inclined toward spiritism and how to makethem believe things that are not true. Such ones may sin- cerely believe that they saw and heard certain things and may relate their experiences as truth. In time, their sto- ries become exaggerated by constant retelling. If a Chris- tian were to spread such stories, he would, in effect, be doing the bidding of the Devil—“the father of the lie.” He would be spreading Satan’s propaganda.—John 8:44; 2 Timothy 2:16. 21 Second,evenifaChristianhadsomerealencounters with wicked spirits in the past, he would refrain from re- peatedly entertaining fellow believers with stories about such things. Why? We are admonished: “Look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus.” (He- brews 12:2) Yes, we are to focus our attention on Christ, not Satan. It is noteworthy that while on earth, Jesus did not entertain his disciples with stories about wicked spir- its, although he could have said much about what Sa- tan could or could not do. Rather, Jesus focused on the Kingdom message. Therefore, in imitation of Jesus and the apostles, we want to center our conversations on “the magnificent things of God.”—Acts 2:11; Luke 8:1; Ro- mans 1:11, 12. There is so much flippy floppy ideal changes here its hard to get your head around it. Why the hell have the chapter on Satan if you arent supposed to talk about demon and Satan? Lol Last thing....is archdeceiver a word? Spellcheck says no.
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DS211
Oh and thanks bohm and Sam for those ideas! Ill try to include them....should be interesting to see reactions
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punkofnice
bohm
The problem with the passage is it is so full of assumptions
Yup. Totally. The whole thing is based on wild assumptions on foundations already established by the WBT$.