I accept that science cannot prove the non-existence of God. But . . .

by nicolaou 185 Replies latest members adult

  • Simon
    Simon

    There is always lots of evidence that points to there being no god but NO evidence whatsoever to backup the claims that there is one.

    Given that it's really up to the god-pushers to prove their claim, not others to disprove it, then I'd say it was case closed. They are just too stubborn to accept it.

    But that is "faith" - a complete stubborn refusal to accept facts the contradict your belief and dogmatic insistence that you're right despite the complete absence of any evidence. Except by calling it "faith" they make it sound like it's something to be proud of. It isn't. It's like admitting you're an unthinking idiot.

    But hey, we were all there once. The cure is simple - just think a little, open your mind, stop reciting the mantra and your head clears right up. No side effects and can be taken between meals and with alcohol. Free thought is awesome.

  • tec
    tec

    Just because science has not yet discovered how something can happen... does not mean that it did not happen or that it is impossible. I don't even hink science would state that it will never be possible for cells and such to be reanimated, to the point of 'resurrecting' a person who has died. Just don't have the know-how yet. But I mean, we can already restart hearts, bring a person back from clinical death. We have a certain window before the brain begins to die, deprived of oxygen, but I can see how that limitation can get smaller and smaller as time and understanding and tools develop.

    And of course, some of the things in your OP list are regarding specific and literal interpretations of the bible, and also that do not account for the spiritual.

    (You know, if you research the situation in Ethiopia and how the land has been raped for profit, you will find man and his greed at the source of the famines and starvation. Not just there, but in many other places also. Some men are trying to help counter what man, himself, has done by sending money/food/supplies... some do nothing... some try to help counter situations that man has created that cause harm closer to home. Science only needs to find an answer to the starving children in Ethiopia because of the decisions man made to begin with.)

    Peace,

    tammy

  • Xanthippe
    Xanthippe

    Nic, sometimes people have been so beaten up by life that they can't seem to access their essential self. There is no solid self in there that they can rely on and everyone they know from their abusive parents onwards have let them down. I think when they pray and feel they get help they are accessing their wiser self that is buried deep within but their self esteem is so low they think it is God. Some people I have met in my voluntary work for a mental health charity, well I can't just tell them to open their minds or read about evolution. First they would have to recover enough mental health to have the concentration to finish a page let alone a book. I can't just pull the rug and tell them it's all nonsense even when I am sorely tempted. Just my thoughts from my experiences.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    Evidence itself is a subject for discussion because for evidence to exist it implies belief in a truth, whatever that truth is, and what gets counted as evidence is a function of what one believes as true before any evidence is even heard. In other words, what is considered evidence is a function of belief for anyone, whether theist or atheist. Fortunately science doesn’t deal with proofs because the scientific method doesn’t work that way, for proof only applies to mathematics. Mathematics however can only be understood in a mind and something that has sentience. Why should the universe work according to an intellectual discipline that can only be understood in a sentient mind and what might be this little fact be evidence of?

    Well, if I were to think that mathematical laws came about in the embodiment of the physical universe because of an accident of nothing, as opposed to something that could understand mathematics at some point in the apparent creative chain, I would certainly wonder where the burden of proof really was at the door of the theist and not perhaps the atheist instead.

    It all depends of what set of premises one starts out with, hence the need to understand the circular argument of evidence, truth and belief being co dependant on one another.

  • prologos
    prologos

    my " favoured deity" had humans migrate from the area pictured above, in order to make a real success of themselfs.

    they devised high yield crops, fertilizers, irrigation in more begnine climates. They tried containing violent power struggles and also came up with

    Birth control methods.

    with all these possibilities he/she puts the responsibility squarely on us.

  • cofty
    cofty

    if I were to think that mathematical laws came about in the embodiment of the physical universe because of an accident of nothing

    Maths is just a language Seraphim. It is a human construct. It isn't a "thing" that requires any explantion.

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    cofty, what Seraphim is trying to say is there is order in the universe, the laws of physics (and maths) are Divine from God. Seraphim please correct me if I have mistunderstood you.

    Sam xx

  • prologos
    prologos

    a language that seems to have EMBODIED in the cosmos and universe long before humans discovered, re-invented, discovered it, matched it up with the existing forces, fields and structures.

    a matchless match.

  • adamah
    adamah

    TEC said-

    Just because science has not yet discovered how something can happen... does not mean that it did not happen or that it is impossible.

    AND

    I don't even hink science would state that it will never be possible for cells and such to be reanimated, to the point of 'resurrecting' a person who has died. Just don't have the know-how yet.

    You DO see the difference between those situations, right?

    Proving God's existence is NOT on the same level as cells being reanimated, since the differences are incredibly HUGE!

    In comparison, we know that:

    1) cells exist

    2) cells die (cell death, AKA apoptosis)

    Therefore, scientists would like to be able to stop and/or reverse apoptosis in order "resurrect" people. Conquering death is an ancient quest of mankind (BTW, it would raise some extremely problematic and difficult ethical issues along the way, but it's OT here).

    Now compare that to the challenge of proving God, where we don't know ANYTHING about ANY Gods, except that it's an ancient belief that has persisted for millenia, since there's no sign of activity of gods; what had previously been pointed to as proof of God's existence (eg the complexity of life, AKA Paley's watch) has been explained by scientific investigation and evolution.

    Scientists are not just sadistic kill-joys out to crush the religious faith of believers: it's that there's NOTHING, absolutely NO evidence whatsoever to point TO anything spiritual like Gods, so there's NOTHING to examine (except the minds of those who believe: that's what 'neurotheology' is all about, the scientific investigation of belief by studying the brains of believers in MRI). In contrast, there's TONS of evidence pointing to men's hand in the perpetuation of delusional beliefs in Gods.

    TEC said- You know, if you research the situation in Ethiopia and how the land has been raped for profit, you will find man and his greed at the source of the famines and starvation. Not just there, but in many other places also. Some men are trying to help counter what man, himself, has done by sending money/food/supplies... some do nothing... some try to help counter situations that man has created that cause harm closer to home. Science only needs to find an answer to the starving children in Ethiopia because of the decisions man made to begin with.

    It would be nice if believers quit saying things like 'man, himself' did this or that and only has himself to blame, since to an atheist, that's pretty much what is presupposed: there are no Gods to come along and bail us out, and the World has been and always will be whatever it is that we make of it. If there's injustice in the World, then there's always some who are able to deny their role in causing harm to others, or who rationalize their actions away by saying, "if I didn't take the money from the public coffers, someone else would". Then there's those who are empathetic to the plight of their fellow humans and will want to help, NOT necessarily for the victims, but for OURS.

    At this point in human existence on the Planet, altruism is selfish, since the World is now more-interconnected, where those living on the other side of the planet are inter-connected via trade. And since we are a social species; the next step in the evolution of homo sapiens is primarily attitudinal and behavior-based, to put aside old-fashioned and long-disproven racial and religious distinctions to recognize that all humans have won the race to become the dominant species on the planet, and now we sink or swim together. I suspect it'll take about 2,000 more years, but it'll have to happen eventually.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    Yes that is correct more or less KateWild. Mathematical truth seems to have been discovered rather than invented, which leaves the question open as to who the inventor might be, considering it seems to be information encoded in the very seeds of the universe.

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