by Doug Mason 20 Replies latest watchtower bible
"True, the JW version of Jehovah is silly at times, and certainly doesn’t reflect the wisdom, love or intelligence of the God of Israel, but it’s the shallow reflection of God as they see him." - Cold
Sorry, not just JW or Christianity, but none of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam and the Bahá'í Faith) will reflect the wisdom, love or intelligence of your deity because their isn't any. And yes, for a deity, he/she/it is mean, vindictive and specially bloodthirsty.
Design: Religious people invest a lot of themsleves in their beliefs and it shatters one's world to give them up without a new and better explanation of reality.
Yes, and then there's the question of if there is a new and better explanation. Many of the science priestcraft are now so impressed with their own credentials that they've been willing to toss God overboard since the days man first peered into the heavens. Why? Because of a narrow-minded and bigoted church. But since then, science has battled itself as avidly as it battled religion. One hundred and fifty years ago, Ignaz Semmelweis argued that it would be a good idea if surgeons and other medical staff wash their hands. He was immediately attacked by his overzealous colleagues. As Harvard MD John Long Wilson noted: “His doctrine was opposed by powerful members of the academic hierarchy. … The damning evidence that they were themselves the remorseless messengers of death was a scarcely veiled threat to their pride and eminence.” Tied to that was the notion that germs couldn’t cause disease and death, that tobacco could cure cancer, and then there was Fritz Zwicky, who conceived of “dark matter” in the 1930s and was a laughing stock for more than 40 years. Alfred Wegener, in 1912, was ridiculed for his advocacy of continental drift and for decades the idea that scurvy could be relieved by citrus or that pellagra was a vitamin B deficiency.
So until science can tell us for a fact that there is no God and that the order in the creation and operation of the universe, and the complexity in even the simplest of flowers and soaring intelligence of man can be random occurrences, then there will be religion. I’m sixty years old and can’t recall the number of news stories about how this and that discovery will rewrite textbooks — but I wish I had saved them. I would need a fairly large box!
.
MadGiant: Sorry, not just JW or Christianity, but none of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam and the Bahá'í Faith) will reflect the wisdom, love or intelligence of your deity because [there] isn't any. And yes, for a deity, he/she/it is mean, vindictive and specially bloodthirsty.
And by whose standards? Yours? If there is no God, neither you nor anyone else has any right to establish any standards of right or wrong. And how was God ever mean, vindictive or bloodthirsty? Because of his destruction of cultures you know nothing about and under conditions in which you are entirely ignorant? How can man, with only a tiny modicum of knowledge, hope to judge a being of omnipotent power and omniscient knowledge and wisdom? Do you know what happens after death? And the people the Lord destroys — do you know what is in their hearts or what their deeds are? Do you know how they receive strangers or whether they throw their children in furnaces while drummers drum to keep the people from hearing the screams of the infants as they perish in the flames? Or whether they engage in profligate sexual fertility rites?
That’s the problem. I read all these atheistic websites that rave about how brutal, bloodthirsty, jealous, mean, barbaric and sadistic God is. The problem lies in their own quickness in judgment, which is why the Lord decrees He is the ultimate Judge of mankind. He knows all the facts going in and where the people will go when they pass through the veil. And He assures us His judgment will be just and true.
Why not believe that?
.
English is my second language, so I will try to answer to the best of my ability. -
Excuse:
Attempt to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offense); seek to defend or justify.
A reason put forward to defend or justify a fault or offense.
Explanation:
A set of statements constructed to describe a set of FACTS which clarifies the causes, context, and consequences of those FACTS. This description may establish rules or laws, and may clarify the existing ones in relation to any objects, or phenomena examined. The components of an explanation can be implicit, and be interwoven with one another.
Guess with one you just gave.
And by whose standards? Yours?
The short answer will be yes, morals and ethics, with is what I understand by “standards of right or wrong” is a socio-cultural evolution that changes in time within humanity. And you are mistaken; moralities are sets of self-perpetuating and ideologically-driven behaviors which encourage human cooperation. That’s why we live in societies. Social animals, from ants to elephants, have modified their behaviors, by restraining immediate selfishness in order to improve their evolutionary fitness. Human morality though sophisticated and complex relative to other animals, is essentially a natural phenomenon. No god has anything to do with or morals. To give you an example; nowhere in the Bible is slavery lambasted as an oppressive and evil institution, yet we as a society, came to the conclusion that slavery is wrong, so today, it's illegal to own other people.
And how was God ever mean, vindictive or bloodthirsty? Because of his destruction of cultures you know nothing about and under conditions in which you are entirely ignorant?
Come on, do you really, really can picture a scenario where genocide is ok? Do you really think there is an explanation to justify murdering women, children and infants?
Frankly, you are just preaching (making excuses) in the next paragraph. And there are a lot of questions that even you, a believer, have no answers. What happened after death? I have no idea (with I think it's an honest and better explanation, because you don’t know either) Nothing, if I have to be blunt. What I DO know is that we become part of the system, what remains of our energy (and I am talking about chemistry here) turn into food and resources for others species to thrive and survive.
The thing is that your deity IS mean, vindictive and especially bloodthirsty, just read your holy book, it's all in there. Come on, the only way he/she/it would “wipe” the “sins” of humanity was with a blood sacrifice for crying out loud. The only option that your “omnipotent power and omniscient knowledge and wisdom” god came up with was killing his son/him (depending of your brand of Christianity).
Why not believe that?
The question should be; Why do you believe?
Ismael
Ismael: Excuse: Attempt to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offense); seek to defend or justify. A reason put forward to defend or justify a fault or offense.
Explanation: A set of statements constructed to describe a set of FACTS which clarifies the causes, context, and consequences of those FACTS. This description may establish rules or laws, and may clarify the existing ones in relation to any objects, or phenomena examined. The components of an explanation can be implicit, and be interwoven with one another. Guess [which] one you just gave.
Call it what you wish, sir. We’re discussing subjective concepts of what is right and what is wrong. Who are you, or I, to decide what is good or what is evil? Is slavery worse, or better, than abortion? If there is no God, then the discussion is immaterial because evil only exists in YOUR mind and MY mind, and our concepts of it may differ. The same thing is true of measurements. If there is no standard, then do you get to decide what a meter is or do I? Or if we have competing standards, which is morally correct, your standard or mine?
Well, neither is morally correct; it’s a matter of which falls into popular use. Human bondage has been a part of human history since the beginning. Slavery in the old South of the U.S. has been greatly publicized and analyzed, but in the Old West and throughout highly rural areas, it wasn’t uncommon for travelers to be captured and pressed into labor by men with guns. In some cases they were disarmed and forced to wear their unloaded guns, so passersby wouldn’t be suspicious. This sort of thing happened throughout history and in all parts of the world. Jesus knew he couldn’t prevent slavery and, besides, abolishing it was not his mission. His Kingdom was not of this world. His mission was to free people spiritually from Death, which otherwise would have eternal consequences. Thus, not able to abolish it and trying to do so would have crippled his cause, he taught people that if they had to be slaves, then be the best they could be. And many slaves were baptized and became Christians.
Ismael: ...what I understand by “standards of right or wrong” is a socio-cultural evolution that changes in time within humanity. And you are mistaken; moralities are sets of self-perpetuating and ideologically-driven behaviors which encourage human cooperation.
You can believe that if you wish, but if there are no consequences, or punishment, there is no such thing as “sin” or evil. If I’m hitchhiking and you pick me up, and down the road I pull a gun on you, take your money, the keys to your home and your fine car, then murder you and throw you off the side of the road, then go ransack your house for whatever I want, unless I’m caught, there are no consequences. We both go down to death and both inherit the same: the cold and silent grave. There is no morality in the grave — no judgment. The saint and sinner receive the same reward, which is none at all. Who cares how society judges us? In a few hundred years, what difference will it make?
Thus, only God can set standards. And yes, he can, as our eternal judge, commit “genocide” if he wishes. That is, he can remove us from this world and place us in a penalty box, where we can, for an allotted time, reflect on the evils we did in life and pay the “utmost farthing” for those evils. When he visits destruction on a people, he doesn’t cause them to cease to exist. And if there is no God, there’s no evil in committing genocide, because (again) all will eventually die anyway.
CS- You have brought up the genocide of the human race as have others on another thread dealing with a related topic of the "new covenant". You ask what difference does killing someone now make years down the road. How can criminal and civil laws be developed and who decides what is right and wrong.
1948, the International Declaration of Human Rights was put forth by the UN. It represented centuries of moral and philosophical debate and growth within our civilization. A document worth studying and the background that produced it.
Having spent some 50 years in a religion, JW, that espoused genocide as a solution it is always chilling to hear people still involved in a god-oriented belief system speak of such a repugnant thing. Its hard to know how to even dialogue with you.
Read that document.
Doug Mason:
How is it that in a world that is so technological, scientific, fact-based, evidence-based, and so on, that many people are superstitious - even more so, the superstitions of ancient cultures?
As a social animal, people derive a sense of community by maintaining traditions. There is also some excitement in believing certain superstitions, while others give people a feeling of control over otherwise unpredictable events. Additionally, technological advancement doesn't automatically make everyone more advanced or rational.
Watkins:
Like throwing spilt salt over your shoulder, or not walking under a ladder, or not opening an umbrella inside the house, or believing you'll have 7 yrs. bad luck if you break a mirror, or knocking on wood?
You forgot prayer.
It is fairly disappointing that in this day and age, there are still people who believe they can influence events by talking to an invisible friend in space.
Same disclaimer, answers to the best of my ability. -
“Call it what you wish, sir. We’re discussing subjective concepts of what is right and what is wrong. Who are you, or I, to decide what is good or what is evil? Is slavery worse, or better, than abortion? If there is no God, then the discussion is immaterial because evil only exists in YOUR mind and MY mind, and our concepts of it may differ. The same thing is true of measurements. If there is no standard, then do you get to decide what a meter is or do I? Or if we have competing standards, which is morally correct, your standard or mine?”
You are mistaken, yet again. Ethics and morals are NOT a “subjective concept”, they are tangibles and you can witness their evolution by reading some history books. Philosophers like Plato and Aristotle discussed about morals and ethics hundreds of years before the bible and jesus.
Morality is derived from the Latin moralitas, or “manner, character, and proper behavior.” Morality has to do with how you act toward others. In societies they have always be present to some extents. You can, of course, act in a way that has no effect on anyone else, and in this case morality isn’t involved. But given the choice between acting in a way that increases someone else’s moral good or not, it is more moral to do so than not.
We need an evolutionary understanding of where a strong sense of right and wrong comes from as an instinct, and a neurobiological account of how our brains function or not when they engage in ethical reasoning.
Morality involves conscious choice, and the choice to act in a manner that increases someone else’s moral good, then, is a moral act, and its opposite is an immoral act. To give you another example, rape is bad, whether or not god say it, rape is bad. Yet God offers no prohibition against rape, and in fact seems to encourage it in many instances as a perquisite of war for victors. Adultery, which is prohibited in the Bible, would still be wrong even if god say it or not.
I don't understand why you are weighing slavery against abortion; they are two completely different concepts. I am a male; my body won't change due to pregnancy. I don't have to suffer from Diastasis recti or have a Chloasma among other changes that woman bodies undergo while pregnant, giving birth or 25 years after. And I am not mentioning rape, diseases or other complication as causes to end pregnancy. As I understand, I have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body.
Now, I can relate with slavery. I am black, and I will tell you that I rather be dead that been a slave.
I already told you that Social animals, from ants to elephants have modified their behaviors to improve their evolutionary fitness. Human morality is essentially a natural phenomenon. It’s not a believe or an opinion.
“Jesus knew he couldn’t prevent slavery and, besides, abolishing it was not his mission. His Kingdom was not of this world. His mission was to free people spiritually from Death, which otherwise would have eternal consequences. Thus, not able to abolish it and trying to do so would have crippled his cause, he taught people that if they had to be slaves, then be the best they could be. And many slaves were baptized and became Christians.”
If the son of god (or god, depending of the flavor of the week), couldn’t give instructions to implement the most basic right a human been has;. What he did beside some parlor tricks? And you are mistaken yet again; slaves were FORCED or " tricked" to adopt the religion of their masters. What is the evidence for the rest of your claims?
“You can believe that if you wish, but if there are no consequences, or punishment, there is no such thing as “sin” or evil. If I’m hitchhiking and you pick me up, and down the road I pull a gun on you, take your money, the keys to your home and your fine car, then murder you and throw you off the side of the road, then go ransack your house for whatever I want, unless I’m caught, there are no consequences. We both go down to death and both inherit the same: the cold and silent grave. There is no morality in the grave — no judgment. The saint and sinner receive the same reward, which is none at all. Who cares how society judges us? In a few hundred years, what difference will it make?”
And this is my sign and could be yours to. If you find out today that there is no god, no heaven, no afterlife, no reward will you go ballistic, into a murderous rampage tomorrow until someone stops you?
If the answers is no………there you go, you are a moral person.
My original question still unanswered; Why do you believe?
Ismael
If I found out that there was no God tomorrow, no, I wouldn't go into a murderous rage and begin shooting people. But if I did, and got away with it in this world, I would have nothing to worry about. I could be a veritable Red John and not have to worry about it because only my sense of morality is valid. Everyone else is completely at my disposal, and whether I choose to be benevolent or malicious is wholly my choice.
But if there is a God, then every man is born, to some degree, with the light of Christ. And because of the fall they would know good from evil. How? Not because of Greek or Latin philosophy. Not because of the wisdom of the ancients, but because you're born with it. No one needs to tell you that murdering innocents is evil; that's why no one can excuse themselves at the last day by claiming they were ignorant.
One theologian put it this way:
The ability to have an unsettled conscience is a gift of God to help you succeed in this mortal life. It results principally from the influence of the Light of Christ on your mind and heart. The Light of Christ is that divine power or influence that emanates from God through Jesus Christ. It gives light and life to all things. It prompts all rational individuals throughout the earth to distinguish truth from error, right from wrong. It activates your conscience. Its influence can be weakened through transgression and addiction and restored through proper repentance. The Light of Christ is not a person. It is a power and influence that comes from God and when followed can lead a person to qualify for the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Ghost.
The above reflects my belief. Again, Darwin says survival is hard wired into us to ensure the preservation of the species. But the knowledge of good and evil cannot be hard wired into us except by an outside intelligence.
.
Cold Steel:
We Mormons were criticized back in the 1830s for believing in angels in a day of locomotives (as if locomotives defined the pinnacle of man’s ingenuity).
And rightly so. It's drivel.
