When did Jesus start ruling as king?

by DS211 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  DS211

  This is from 4jehovah.org and is an interesting way to use the Bible to plant some seeds of doubt.

  "

  KAREN: Hello Cindy I’ve been reading over our next lesson in the Watchtower brochure What Does God Require of Us? and I’m confused about when Jesus would be “enthroned as King of God’s Kingdom.” In this brochure, the Watchtower Society says “When Jesus was on earth, he proved that he would be a kind, just, and perfect Ruler. When he returned to heaven, he was not enthroned as King of God’s Kingdom right away.” Then the Society said that it wasn’t until 1914, that “Jehovah gave Jesus the authority He had promised him.” 1. I don’t understand why the Watchtower teaches that Jesus did not receive his authority right away when he resurrected from the dead. Didn’t Jesus say to his disciples at his resurrection at Matthew 28:18: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.”? 2.

  CINDY: Yes, he did say that, Karen, but that doesn’t mean that Jesus began his Kingdom rule then. It only means that he was given the authority over the Christian congregation of his followers at that time.

  KAREN: So let me get this straight, Cindy. Are you saying that Christ’s rulership and authority that was given to him at his resurrection was limited to the Christian congregation until 1914 when he gained rulership over the earth?

  CINDY: That’s right, Karen. The Society says in their bookKnowledge That Leads To Everlasting Life: “Jesus knew that his rulership over the earth was reserved for the future, long after his resurrection and ascension to heaven.…The Scriptures had foretold this. How so? Prophetically referring to Jesus as ‘Lord,’ King David said: ‘The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” ’ (Psalm 110:1)…This prophecy indicates that Jesus’ rulership would not begin immediately after his ascension to heaven. Rather, he would wait at God’s right hand.” Then they reference Hebrews 10:12, 13 and ask the question. “How long would this waiting go on? When would his rulership begin?” 3. Karen, would you like to read Hebrews 10:12-13?

  KAREN: Sure. “But He [Christ], having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet.” 4.

  CINDY: So you see, Karen, Jesus had to “wait” at Jehovah’s right hand, before Jesus could begin his rulership over the earth.

  KAREN: But Cindy, what does the Bible say Jesus was waiting for at God’s right hand?

  CINDY: Why, Karen, it says Jesus was “awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.” 5.

  KAREN: Cindy, what are the enemies Jesus was waiting to be placed under His feet?

  CINDY: I’m not sure, Karen, but I suppose those enemies have something to do with worldly governments.

  KAREN: Cindy, would you read 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 in yourNew World Translation Bible?

  CINDY: O.K. “But each one of his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.” There you have it Karen! These verses show that Jesus will put an end to all worldly governments and then it says Jesus will hand “over the kingdom” to Jehovah God.

  KAREN: O.K. Cindy, now read the next two verses 25 and 26.

  CINDY: “For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.” 6.

  KAREN: Now, Cindy, according to this passage, what is the last enemy that is going to be put under Jesus’ feet?

  CINDY: Well, it says that the last enemy is death.

  KAREN: Now, Cindy, we were just reading in Hebrew 10 that Jesus is waiting at the right hand of God until his enemies would be put under his feet. Since 1 Corinthians 15 says that the last enemy is death, doesn’t this mean that Jesus is still waiting at the right hand of God?

  CINDY: I never saw that before!

  KAREN: Cindy, was death destroyed in 1914? Since all of Jesus’ enemies have not been put under his feet yet, how can Jesus not still be waiting at the right hand of God?

  CINDY: Well, I guess your right, Karen. Jesus must be waiting at the right hand of God even today!

  KAREN: Now Cindy, if Christ could not start ruling until God had put all his enemies under his feet, how can Jesus’ rule have begun in 1914 “in the midst of his enemies” and why did he have to start his reign with a war against them?

  CINDY: I don’t know, Karen.

  KAREN: Cindy would you read verse 28 of 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and tell me what Jesus will do after all things have been put under his feet?

  CINDY: Sure. It says: “But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.” 7. What was your question again, Karen?

  KAREN: My question is, what does this verse say Jesus will do after all things are subjected to him and put under his feet?

  CINDY: Well, Karen, it says Jesus will turn everything over to God.

  KAREN: Now, Cindy, let me get this straight. According to the Watchtower Society, Jesus is waiting at the right hand of God and cannot start ruling until his enemies are put under his feet, right?

  CINDY: That’s right, Karen.

  KAREN: Now my question is this. If Jesus cannot start ruling until his enemies are put under his feet and the Bible says at 1 Corinthians 15:24 and 28 that Jesus will turn over the kingdom to God the very moment that his enemies are put under him, when will Jesus be able to start ruling? What happened to His Kingdom? Because the very moment that it is time for Jesus to start ruling, after all his enemies have been put under his feet, it will be time for him to hand over the kingdom to God!

  CINDY: That’s a good point Karen. I don’t know.

  KAREN: Cindy, will you read 1 Corinthians 15:25 again, please?

  CINDY: “For he [Christ] must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet.” 8.

  KAREN: Cindy, what does this verse say Jesus is doing while He is at the right hand of God and waiting for all his enemies to be put under his feet?

  CINDY: Why, Karen, it says “he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet.” 9.

  KAREN: So when did Jesus’ kingship start? When did Jesus start waiting for God to put all enemies under his feet?

  CINDY: Well, Karen, He has been waiting since His resurrection. So He must have begun ruling as king at that time.

  COMMENTS:

  Friends, at Christ’s resurrection, Jesus said that “All authority” both “in heaven” and “on earth” had been given to Him. If “all authority” had been given to Jesus at His resurrection, what authority could be given to Him in 1914 that He didn’t already have?

  "(4jehovah.org) i enjoyed it..what do u guys think? DS
• 

  Crazyguy

  Great way to word it. I like to refure people to Ephesians 1:20-23. But the use of Corinthians is awesome as well. Great find I'll check out the website.
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  blondie

  WTS

  1. 33 A.D.

  2. 1914 A.D.

  3. After Armageddon

  4. After he turns it over to God and apparently gets it back?
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  Witness My Fury

  If they can come up with overlapping generations, they can come up with overlapping kingships, phase 1, phase 2 etc.

  Confirmation bias is a strong deterrent to reason...
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  jgnat

  All this throning and dethroning is so confusing...
• 

  DS211

  A game of thrones--Bible style
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  highroad

  Marked
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  anonymouz

  It appears Karen also has a logical flaw, confusing a scripture about Christ's end of rulership (1Cor15:25-28), with the mistake it is a description of conditions enabling the start of Christ's rulership when it is clearly the opposite in the scripture itself - it is called "the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to God" - thus about the end, not the start, of Christ's tenure in God's Kingdom rulership.
  
  Christ must "rule as king until" death is placed beneath his feet, which implies Christ is king while that process of the conquest of death is in action, until that anti-death process is complete, until that time and condition is met Christ is active King. (Heb2:14).
  
  Thus 1Cor15:25-26 in not a description of conditions of Christ's starting to rule, but the requirement of the conquest concluding his rule, as next he hands that full kingdom sovereignty, deathless now, to God. Plainly he rules (is thus king) until... said objective is met. And plainly Christ cannot hand back a Kingdom and start to rule that kingdom at the same time. In Karen's logic there would be no rule of Christ whatsoever if the removal of death was a sign of Christ starting to rule, for immediately he hands back the Kingdom to God, he thus never rules in that brief interim in Karen's logic.
  
  Thus as Karen says: "if Christ could not start ruling until God had put all his enemies under his feet", is in itself an error of logic, what the scripture actually implies is "if Christ could not STOP ruling until God had put all his enemies under his feet"...
  
  Clearly in the scripture the point is Christ could not cease rulership until all his enemies were underfoot. 1Cor15:24-28 is not about Christ beginning rulership, but the met objectives signaling his end of rulership as then subjecting himself and kingdom rule to God the ultimate King.
  
  Thus with initial flawed logic, of course the further conclusions Karen draws are also incorrect in that particular attempt of "proof". It is apparent in 1Cor15:24-28 Christ is in active rulership as the primary Kingly power deposing all his enemies in Messianic earth related sovereign context which conclusion of rulership is signaled by the full deposition of all his enemies. Then already ruling, he ceases rulership and hands the Kingdom back to God, the one who subjected all things to Christ.
  
  =
  
  I say this not to back Bethel attempts at being valid, but to aid people's awareness of the difference between God's Kingdom and the more recent Messianic Kingdom agency with external to heaven sovereign focus of earth and the universe. (Dan2:31-45).
  
  God's Kingdom will end up ruling all things heavenly and otherwise, the Messianic Kingdom is not a sovereign agency of the rulership of heaven, but of earth. (Rev5:10; Ps2) and physical universe taken from demon rulership; (Eph6:12; Isa24:21-22) And the Messianic Kingdom is not the Kingdom Christ is handing back to God (Rev22:5), Christ is handing back God's Kingdom back to God. This is because ONLY the Christ "son of David" will forever rule the Messianic Kingdom, and only God will in time fully rule his Kingdom he temporarily subjects to Christ in that heavenly aspect to aid empowerment of the Messianic Kingdom earthly sovereignty, not yet complete. (Like it's birth in Rev12, and completion in Rev14) Of course as before, the Messianic Kingdom and Son, are subject to God's supremacy; (Rev22:5). They will rule forever as such unity.
  
  So Christ has yet to be made Messianic Kingdom King-Priest (Zech4:6-9; 6:9-15), but is now the Rev12:1 "crown" of God's "woman" in heavenly authority of God's Kingdom signaled by Rev12:10 removal of Satan and the demons from the heavenly domain as "the authority of God's Christ" completed in that heavenly authority event of Satan's expulsion. That is the Kingdom, God's Kingdom overall, that Christ had to assume at appointed times expiration as ruler, yet not in an earthly focused completed super-sovereignty, but heavenly first, to oversee the Armageddon prelude completion of the Messianic Kingdom, and to be coronated King-Priest by God in the then also completed 8th King's face. (Rev19:11-21).
  
  Bethel obscures all these details, because they are not Christian in the GB, much less genuine anointed of God. They are "man of lawlessness" "set in opposition" "in the temple" as a signal of 2Thess2:1-2 final phase of Messianic Kingdom completion final "gathering" and appearance of Christ "in the temple" as well, as Mal3:1-4, Zech3:1-5, 2Thess2:8 to remove the Bethel profanations prior to actual Armageddon. (1Pet4:17; Dan8:13-14). In fact the Dan8:14 + Dan12:7 timed periods, at least, prior to Armageddon divine war phase.
• 

  Bobcat

  DS211:

  Thanks for reproducing that 'conversation.' I knew from an earlier thread that 1 Cor. 15 replaces "sit at God's right hand" with "rule as king." But that was neat how 'Karen' brought out how when all the enemies are under his feet, Jesus then hands the kingdom back to God.

  Also a good point when she asks, 'If Jesus had all authority in Matthew 28:18, what authority was there left to gain in 1914.

  Excellent post!

  Take Care
• 

  Jeffro

  DS211:

  an interesting way to use the Bible to plant some seeds of doubt.

  Why should getting something to think be described so deviously as "seeds of doubt"?!