What is the truth?

by hardtobeme 40 Replies latest jw friends

  • doofdaddy
    doofdaddy

    Let's assume there was a man called Jesus and he got to be in front of the Governor....

    Pilot, despite what christians say did not dither over guilt or innocence. He was a soldier and had used major force on the Jews previously. Imagine trying to rule this surly bunch who assumed they were god's people and that god would support their insurrection (despite dismal past and future failures).

    He surely wouldn't have been interested at all in this know it all carpenter who claimed to be a king. Pilot was pragmatic. Keep the peace even if it costs the life of one possibly innocent man. Better to kill him than having to slaughter unknown hundreds if he let him free and the religious leaders stirred the people up on the "holy' festival day.

    After Jesus said he was sent to earth witness the truth Pilot who was living evidence of the superiority of Greco/Roman knowledge and understanding (and power) asked a basic philosophical question "What is truth?"

    Jesus knew that what ever his response Pilot would quickly and easily show how foolish and childish a belief in absolute truth is, so remained silent.

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic
    Truth is a descriptor of claims that match reality.
  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    well I have to tell you all I am finding Scott Atran's explanations very very satisfying at the moment (of course I'll prolly be less so when I read a rebuttal here or somewhere else) - but hey guys we can live with controversy!

    lemme get the page number and all

    p.173 (on kindle)

    "Religion arises when (1) hard to fake emotions (2) ally with thought content whose truth implications are logically and factually impossible to evaluate (3) but that together convincingly evoke commitment to cultural mores. Religious beliefs and experiences cannot be consistently validated by social consensus either through deductive or inductive inference. Validation occurs only by satisfying the very emotions that motivate religious beliefs and experiences"

    So on this understanding if you put JW meetings to the test (and even Jesus' sayings and teachings) you may find that the sceptre of existential anxieties is raised and then assuaged and quelled by the teachings and mores of the group/person. so imo this sounds like a kind of roller coaster or tidal ride of emotion that if repeated often or even once in a while but is intense enough (as in Paul's vision) leads to life long commitment. The truth part then is this emotional validity according to Scott Atran's research and he goes on to say the following

    "these religious sentiments feel right and good, and the religious quasi propositions that express them become truly held. No human society has long survived without such seemingly arbitrary but sanctified sentiments."

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    (oops time limit gone)

    so in answer to the question does the GB have truth - I have to say based on the above - a resounding yes (but be very wary cos they can make you to do things you would not have done in the past and that you may be ashamed of in the future if you decide to leave) like shunning relative and friends, remaining quiet over child abuse, devoting all your time and resources to service

  • stuckinarut2
    stuckinarut2

    Pilate was NOT actually ASKING for an answer to a question "what is truth"?

    He was simply retorting with a rhetorical statement "what is truth!?"

    Similar to the way someone who is exasperated might say "Whats the point!". They are NOT asking for the point to be explained, they are just implying that there is 'no point' in going further.

  • ssn587
    ssn587
    Truth isn't anything put out by the witnesses, they wouldn't know the truth if it was biting them in the ass.
  • Terry
    Terry

    We destroy our rational mind through the way we misuse language.

    How? We lose track of what we are referring to and become tangled in subtext, fanciful metaphor, poetic digression, and 'spiritualizing' our imagination.

    Is poison a good thing to drink? No. That is true because it is demonstrable.

    It is a useful and practical thing to know. It is factual.

    What about taking a slow poison? Doesn't it bring about eventual death?

    A lifetime of exposure to a socially approved form of irrational non-fact cannot be healthy. It is slow poison.

    Civilization has been held in thrall by superstition almost from the very beginning. Mankind staggers about drunk on non-fact because it is inebriated by religious poison.

    What is true is demonstrable in a real way.

    That other sort of 'true' is bullshit, no matter what the numinous source may be said to be.

    Superstition makes claims, creates fear, makes murky what is plain, and otherwise disconnects us from everyday reality.

    If you find yourself confused by some 'truth' you are told--maybe, just maybe it is superstition and mysticism instead of fact.

  • stuckinarut2
    stuckinarut2

    "Truth" can be proven by facts.

    If there are no FACTS, there is no TRUTH.

  • bohm
    bohm

    The problem with the word "truth" is that it have multiple meanings in different contexts which are very commonly confused, even by philosophers.

    To get started, our common-sense intuition about where we should go look for truth is in logic. Logic is the study of consequence of assumptions. In other words, in logic* you assume you have certain axiom and you can then derive consequences of those axioms and other propositions. The consequences are then said to be "true". For instance if you have accepted that (A) socrates is a man and (B) all men are mortal it is then true that (C) socrates is mortal. This is the most fundamental characterization of true and the one we are all likely to resort to.

    The problem is this will not do in terms of answering Ponteus question. certainly, *we* can say that: "C is true", however *logic* (as discussed up to now) is not expressing this relation, therefore *logic* cannot express the sentence "C is true" (under the above definitions). This distinction is quite technical, however it is one many philosophers are prone to re-discover in various forms and point it out as a fundamental problem of defining truth. To analyze a sentence like "C is true" (that is to say, to have a formal system which expresses a proposition is true), you need something like Tarskis semantic theory of truth which is quite technical. This would however be my answer to Ponteus: Read Tarski!

    Now, a problem which now occur is none of this corresponds to our common-sense intuitions about truth in the real world. For instance suppose we flip a coin 1000 times and it comes up heads 1000 times. Would we conclude it is true the coin is biased? There is no principled way to derive this conclusion using logic** (we could just have been very unfortunate!), and so it is easy to resort to all sorts of odd speculations like there is no truths about the real world etc. etc. What occurs here is we should really ask for our *degree of belief* in the proposition "the coin is not biased"; this is a concept that can be analysed with some rigor (c.f. the Bayesian interpretation of probabilities) giving us a framework that allows us to give definite meaning to a statement such as: I have a very high belief the coin is biased because it just came up heads 1000 times out of 1000 flips.

    A second problem is most of the time when we consider the real world, we are not really interested in "truth" (in a technical sense) but good models. For instance newtons laws are not "true" in any strict sense (they give wrong predictions in some instances), however they do provide a very good and valuable model for reality. It is for this reason I am a bit skeptical with a statement such as: "truth is what corresponds to reality", since it seems this both ignores the most rigorous definitions of "truth", rules out very good models of reality which nevertheless are not strictly corresponding to reality all the time (newtons laws, the theory of relativity, etc.) and introduces the additional problem that we do not have access to "what corresponds to reality". For instance how do you determine if it "corresponds" to the reality the coin from before is biased?

    I think we are better off to say: "Since we are talking about the real world, we can only talk about what provides a good model for reality, and specifically the degree in which we can believe in them, and that is then what I am going to talk about. Feel free to call that "truth" or not if you like, I am off to compute the orbit of the moon".

    +++

    * This is not the only characterization of truth in logic.

    ** well ++technical stuff.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Maybe the definition of truth might be the relating informational knowledge without bias or prejudice on accepted and assumed facts .

    As its known there is little truth in the religious expressions of the JW organization or many other

    of the religious practices .

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