by teejay 18 Replies latest jw friends
Hi, teejay,
For those who missed it, I wrote some on this subject back in December. It includes a quote by H. G. Wells that is especially apropos. It's in the piece "The Natural Life Cycle of a Religion."
If you're interested in reviewing it, here's the address.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=16621&site=3
LoneWolf
Excellent teejay.
At the heart of this issue is the most dangerous commodity known to Man:
Knowledge.
Knowledge by itself is neutral, it is truth. A truly honest person, someone who really wants to find the truth, will not be afraid of knowledge.
Its danger lies in its ability to affect our hearts. For those that do not want the truth, who are content with what they believe and desperately want to avoid any change in their paradigm, will avoid knowledge that conflicts with it.
Some go further than that. Some will become so convinced that theirs is the one true way, and so afraid of knowledge that might destroy that illusion, that they forbid others to seek out relevant knowledge or have any real discourse with people with differing views.
That is why the Society forbids its followers to look at any literature that contains knowledge that conflicts with their world-view.
They are afraid of the truth.
All I know FOR SURE is
1. There’s an expanding universe of information that I don’t know, and
2. What I *do* know could be wrong and may need to be amended/discarded.
If I’ve learned nothing else from my 30-some years hanging out w/ Dubs, I’ve learned this and it’s a lesson I absolutely HAD to learn. I’m still pretty opinionated (NO!) but the difference is that all of my opinions have a caveat attached to them: “Don’t trust it implicitly. You COULD be wrong.” I can now listen to and genuinely respect other people’s viewpoints in a way I never did (or could) when I was a know-it-all JW who got his “knowledge” at the feet of Jehovah’s Mouthpiece™. *gag*
Btw... Hyghlandyr? You’re a nut – not that there’s anything wrong with that!
Try Hume's Inquiry if you suffer a dearth of wrath at moibus truths.
I can now listen to and genuinely respect other people’s viewpoints in a way I never did (or could) when I was a know-it-all JW who got his “knowledge” at the feet of Jehovah’s Mouthpiece™. *gag*
I guess it all has had a bit different effect on me. I can scarcely tolerate stupid opinions at times, knowing how skewed said opinions can be. This skewing, more often than not, comes from bad information taken in as truth by the opinioner.
Light=truth
Dark=untruth
Please peeps, no teaching Six a lesson about how difficult truth is to come by, how our personal experience skews our perception of truth and reality. I'm well aware. Still, the light of truth is almost always a good thing.
As for most of your original post teejay, I wholeheartedly agree. The one thing I don't agree with this is, "...of all people we should abso-freaking-lutely ABHOR the attitude or idea that we or any other one of us knows “better” than anyone else. "
Besides the major heebeejeebee I get from "abhor" (it being such a WT word), I just disagree. Obviously, some do know better than others, and in fact, most all of us would agree that we all know better than just about any JW.
Six,
Nice counterpoint to my post. You make valid points: stupid opinions are barely tolerable; some people *do* know more than others; that some opinions *are* more worthy than others. Perhaps I need to clarify...
It’s not that I accept barely intelligible opinions as being worthy—they aren’t. It’s more that I can live with the opinion-holder having the opinion without me feeling an overwhelming need to correct them / show them (or anyone else) where they are wrong. Then again, if I critique their beliefs I will address their (to me) erroneous beliefs and not them personally.
That being said, life experience has forced me to temper my perception of other’s opinions when I know it’s true that not long ago I firmly held to—for many years—quite a few ideas that I now totally reject. If I was so wrong for so long about so many things in the past, the same error in judgment that I know exists in me could again be in effect right now or may be at some future time. With each opinion I presently hold (regardless of how strongly I hold it) I leave myself a way out. When I was a Dub I was thoroughly convinced of so many things. That list of things about which I am convinced as categorically true is comparatively short, nowadays.
I’m also much less concerned that others agree with me or that I must convince them to accept my viewpoint. If a person, say, a JW, believes something that I’m fairly convinced is absurd, I am completely willing to allow them to remain (to me) deluded. That is especially the case if they are the only ones who will suffer for their endorsement of the untruth.
This is never truer than when the topic of religion is breached. Imo, there is no other single topic currently being discussed anywhere in the world wherein so many millions are so ‘out there.’ I see it as the mis-firing of a less than fully functioning mind, beginning with the idea that there is a Loving God dutifully observing humans; that 2000 yrs ago He sent his Firstborn Son to Earth to redeem us; that prayers work; that one day He will come and fix all our problems and we’ll live out eternity in Paradise/Heaven. Tweaking these and other basic tenets to fit one’s culture, race, nationality and life experience leads to a vast assortment of wild, unprovable and unproven ideas.
Oh, I don’t mind engaging believers in a discussion, but I now have a much greater tolerance for people’s freedom to believe whatever absurdities they wish. I no longer see it as My Job to persuade a world of people (or the few I meet) that they must all see things through teejay’s still-cloudy prism. If someone wants to believe something stupid, that’s cool with me. Like JT used to say (paraphrasing), “I’ve done had my last argument about did Jesus die on a cross or stake.” Been there already and stayed way too long when I was.
Btw, sorry for reviving bad memories by my use of “abhor.” I’m not too fond of the word my own damn self. I shoulda said “really, really, really hate.” If there is a concept that I would take out and shoot in the head fifteen times, it’s one that consumed me personally for many years—the truly ugly idea that I’m right, you’re wrong, and if you disagree with me you’re really a worthless piece of dog doo doo so why don’t you just do us all a favor and kill yourself now before The Great Jehovah God Almighty does it for us REAL SOON™ because He agrees w/ me, not you.
Nice note, Six. Thank you.
Teejay my man,
What a treat to read your essay. The crux of or entire basis for being a jw, is all tied up in the concept of 'following'.
Every significant movement religious or otherwise, throughtout recorded history, religious, political, econonmic, required the leader's (faithful slave) and the follower's (rank and file). It is the seasoned receipe for mass manipulation.
What makes it so hard for the average duped jw to see this fact, is the simple fact that the all, or most anyway, of the words or should I say proclomations emenating from the "governing body" are so intimately tied up with so-called sacred 'scripture'.
Tie SACRED and DEVINELY APPOINTED together and you have almost unlimited power. Which of course every single member of that sacrosanct body of selfrighteous geezer's, holed up in their plush offices in Patterson all think they share. Jehovah God's appointment!
I mean how much more credibility does a guy need?
What is so sad about our former selves and those now under the delusion, is the simple fact that all of this is based solely on the presumption that the Bible is in fact the very word of God.
Who started that rumor anyway? Reverence for old books is one thing, attributing the work to God, surely makes for a best seller. Well the Bible monger's have done their work well. It's funny not one of them can step forward and prove beyond reasonable dout, that their books were written under the finger of God.
But even hint that you have doubts about its authenticity, be ready for all hell to break lose.
Got ramblin my friend, just wanted to say I really enjoyed your comments. Well done.
Danny
Danny,
Awfully good to see your note!
Every significant movement religious or otherwise, throughout recorded history, religious, political, economic, required the leader's (faithful slave) and the follower's (rank and file). It is the seasoned recipe for mass manipulation.
An appropriate comment. Sad, but true.
What I admit happening to me is that, as a follower, I eventually took on the characteristics of the leadership, believing I had all the answers to practically every question known to mankind. Certainly made my life simpler. Having the delusion that the leader's statements originate with god makes them all the more powerful and difficult to ignore.
Getting rid of that fantasy has been hard but very rewarding. A secondary benefit/curse is that I hate seeing the, "I'm right and since you disagree w/ me you must be wrong" sort of thinking. I intend to challenge it whenever I see it.
Good seeing you again, old Friend.
Peace.
Hi Teejay!
What a great thread...
A secondary benefit/curse is that I hate seeing the, "I'm right and since you disagree w/ me you must be wrong" sort of thinking. I intend to challenge it whenever I see it.Just poking you in the ribs here (In fun - sorry - couldn't resist!!!)
Actually your remark is a critically important one. Think of how much conflict, frustration and damage transpires when an individual persists in a "me right - you wrong" battle and can not relent until they "win".
One scenario: "if you loved me, you'd see things from my point of view!" (The original issue under contention usually gets lost at some point; real or perceived threats to ego/security are what's REALLY fueling the argument; resentment and badgering tactics escalate until some kind of melt-down occurs.)
Another: "You're a moron/a fool/a child/a female/a male/"vulnerable"/mistaken/demonized/mentally unbalanced.... and your point of view will ruin our lives!" (To maintain the status quo at all costs, because 'change' means 'threat', ad hominem tactics are employed to deflect attention away from the issue at hand. The one who is the more highly-skilled tactic-monger usually wins, and their opponent experiences yet another episode of "learned helplessness".....)
These manipulative, controlling and dehumanizing dynamics are universally employed to some degree or another on this planet... generally, people learn to "agree to disagree" and move on, but within the BORGanization, these tactics are endemic and result in innumerable cases of destroyed relationships. Irreconcilable differences have NO resolution other than expulsion, divorce, death... Conform or be cast out... So germane here is what you also wrote:
I eventually took on the characteristics of the leadership, believing I had all the answers to practically every question known to mankind. Certainly made my life simpler. Having the delusion that the leader's statements originate with god makes them all the more powerful and difficult to ignore.(So true, it making life simpler! Who wants to argue with God?)
Getting rid of that fantasy has been hard but very rewarding.Rock on, Teejay! It's still morning so I'll raise my coffee to you for freedom of thought.
I don't stay tuned-in very long with the flame-wars that exist from time to time on this board, because - well, the original points quickly become moot as the muck gets muckier - it becomes more of an endurance contest than anything. At least that's what it seems like to me. Yawn.
Thanks for posting this thread.
lauralisa
PS Hey DannyBear! Good to 'see' you !
