Proof of the "historical" Jesus...

by simwitness 46 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Double Edge

  Can you point to any prophecies 'the Bible' made that can be verified to have come true somewhere outside the very same book that made them

  First of all, the Bible isn't a "book", rather a collection of "books" that cover hundreds and hundreds of years. So any prophecies made in one "book" and verified by another would answer your question. Also, note that these biblical prophecies ARE verified by outside history books.

  predicting the LACK of an event is a non-event

  Lame... you need to re-read the post... it DOES predict the destruction of a powerful society and names the destroyer.

  the prophets of Israel uttered their predictions over 2500 years ago, long before anyone dreamed that such total destruction was possible.

  Which is the most complete joke of them all. Have you seen representations of ancient cities? Wouldn't take much to tear them down at all - they were MUCH smaller than modern cities and built out of MUCH weaker material (sorry, no steal invented yet - stones topple easily once you are on the inside). Cities of the time were regularly destroyed and never rebuilt.

  REALLY LAME. Now you're looking at history with the 'wisdom' of 20/20 hindsight. To the prophets of those days, those capitols of power and might WERE indestructable....I'm sure they were ridiculed in their day for making such outlandish predictions as to the utter destruction of those magnificant cities (built with the finest material at that time).
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  Double Edge

  MORE FULFILLED PROPHECY

  Prophecy from Isaiah - Trees again would grow in Israel

  Somewhere around 701-681 BC, Isaiah talks of a future restoration of Israel which coincides with an occurrence in modern Israel - the construction of a vast irrigation system to improve farming. The lack of available water, including rain, is one reason why Israel had been a desolate, unproductive land during much of the past 2000 years. But, during the 1900s, when many Jews returned to their ancient homeland, they built a network of irrigation systems. And during the past century, more than 200 million trees have been planted in Israel.

  Here is Isaiah 41:18-20 I will make rivers flow on barren heights, and springs within the valleys. I will turn the desert into pools of water, and the parched ground into springs. I will put in the desert the cedar and the acacia, the myrtle and the olive. I will set pines in the wasteland, the fir and the cypress together, so that people may see and know, may consider and understand, that the hand of the Lord has done this, that the Holy One of Israel has created it.
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  Double Edge

  well this thread sure came to an abrupt end.
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  seedy3

  The prophecy of Babylon is not a very good example of prophecy coming true,
  

  The day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty . . . Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them . . . And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldeans` pride, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited . . . neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there, neither shall shepherds make their flocks to lie down there. But wild beasts of the deserts shall lie there. (Isaiah 13:6, l7, 19-21)

  Behold, I will raise up against Babylon a destroying wind . . . Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed . . . Prepare against (Babylon) the nations, with the kings of the Medes . . . Babylon shall become heaps (ruins), a dwellingplace for jackals, an astonishment and an hissing, without inhabitant . . . The broad walls of Babylon shall be utterly overthrown, and her high gates shall be burned with fire . . . O Lord, thou hast spoken against this place to cut it off, that none shall dwell therein, neither man nor beast, but it shall be desolate for ever

  Now first off, I would like to point out that the Medes and Persians did not destroy Babylon, in fact, they kept it and settled in it, it was still a major city up to an including the time of Alexander the Great. The bold portions in the above quotes say it shall be imedeitlly and utterly destroyed and shall not be inhabited for ever, yet it was not, infact some of the digs in Babylon indicate that there was still a thriving community well into the 1st milleniun AD.

  So again that was not a good example of a prophecy coming true.

  Seedy
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  bluesapphire

  But what if Xander started a cult 2000+ years ago and went around clammoring on about a Cultic Climune who was sent by God to do his bidding and save mankind, etc. Then, Xander would have started the fabrication of the Climune.

  But would Xander be willing to undergo a torturous death for something he new he had made up in the first place? I think that since we cannot get "concrete" evidence of the historical Jesus, then we should look at the deaths of those who claim to have seen him resurrected - FIRST HAND.

  Were they willing to die for their lies? It would seem very odd to me that Peter would die upside down on a cross or that Paul would undergo execution or that John would undergo imprisonment when all they had to do was speak up and say it was all a hoax.

  After all, the reason they were put to death was because the "cult" they had started and were spreading was a threat to the "social order" of their day. So if they had come out and said they were making it all up, then it would have solved the problem and they wouldn't have died.

  So either these people actually saw something which led them to believe it was the resurrected Jesus. Or they were the strangest kind of liars I've ever heard of.
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  Xander

  But would Xander be willing to undergo a torturous death for something he new he had made up in the first place

  You're missing the point. I wouldn't have to. I'd just get together a dozen or so guys who are interested in starting a cult with me. We will them all claim together to be first-hand observers of events 80 years ago (doubling the number since modern lifespans are much longer) - our messiah's miracles, raising the dead, being put to death, raising from the dead, etc.

  It would seem very odd to me that Peter would die upside down on a cross or that Paul would undergo execution or that John would undergo imprisonment

  Kindly site were this is documented outside the bible.

  See, if I were to start a cult with a dozen other guys and was telling these tales (of events 80 years ago) to a group of my followers, I wouldn't stop detailing our messiah's death and resurrection (of which we are the sole surviving witnesses - how convenient!). Oh, no - I'd go into how persecuted we were over it. Oh, yes, we were god's TRUE MESSENGERS, and look how badly we suffered for it. Even our brother {made up name #1} and brother {made up name #2} died for their beliefs, that's why they aren't with us today!!

  Xander F
  (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)

  A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
  --George Santayana
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  SixofNine

  But would Xander be willing to undergo a torturous death for something he new he had made up in the first place?

  I think the answer is: most likely, yes. Sincerity is not really the issue, from what I can see about Kult starters. David Koresh certainly was willing to undergo a horrific death, in fact, he invited that death - made sure it happened.