How to influence those under psychological coercion

by paranoia agent 20 Replies latest jw experiences

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  paranoia agent

  Hi, I am completing a degree in psychology, while doing so a subject on social psychology has some interesting subjects on persuasion and change techniques. So while not all circumstances are different doing so in this manner is the most efficient way:

  1. Do not allow the argument to become heated, studies have showed that people tend to use less of the left side of the brain (left side is where all rational and logical cognitions take place, right hemisphere of the brain is all emotion).

  2. Don't be a hypocrite, if they get angry and upset they subconsciently expect you to do the same to prove themselves that what they are doing is correct, speak calmly with a monotone voice and try to calm the other person down.

  3. Build rapport, rapport can only come from genuine empathy so do not pretend or they will see right through you. Think of the end goal and the logic behind your script of dialogue for rapport, the outcome positive.

  4. Time to get them out, they need to be with a friendly state with you, this goes completely against on what Steven Hassan had written but then Hassan rips of many other psychologists. You will something that produces strong cognitive dissonance - the cadence case. Don't let the cat out of the box yet, give the person time to deduce that information, the next day be ready because you will need to rebuke the jw's claims.

  One person told me that jw's have good intentions, try not be completely be against and agree (which is true), yes jw's do things with good intentions but these intentions hurt others.
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  snare&racket

  I disagree a little, the jw does what they are told, what they are told does not not have good intentions.

  Before you can do much, you must help break that bond between their mind and their obediance to the cult. Even just gentle chatting about things they are not to talk about is a start, discussing WT or biblical history, science, finances or legal issues in WT. It helps them recognise they won't be struck by lightning for disobediance to the org.

  it is funny, the average JW ignores many rules set down by the org, whether it be music, films, holidays, cars, relationships etc. But they really have had the fear of god put into them if they were to dare question the 8 men in brooklyn. The consequences of such action is huge, worse thsn disfellowshipping... Being apostate.

  it takes time to get past that and from experience it is better that it come from them not an outside source. All we need to do is point towards the data, let them choose what and who to question.
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  adamah

  Great points, Paranoia Agent!

  On this:

  One person told me that jw's have good intentions, try not be completely be against and agree (which is true), yes jw's do things with good intentions but these intentions hurt others.

  I'm reminded of the old saying, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions", which pretty much equates to the religious concept of "evil": the most ugly examples of man's inhumanity to man are often carried out by well-intentioned (but nevertheless DELUDED) individuals acting in the name of serving a higher power. The REAL problem with the JWs is their blind obedience to authority, where even the most pleasant and polite personalities can be persuaded to commit horrible acts with the excuse of, "I was just following orders":

  http://awgue.weebly.com/countering-jw-shunning-how-the-implications-of-stanley-milgrams-work-may-suggest-using-a-different-approach.html

  JWs operate under the power of appealing to the greatest authority mankind has ever created, the "appeal to DIVINE Authority".

  Adam
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  ABibleStudent

  Welcome paranoia agent, Congratulations on studying for a degree in psychology.

  You made some good points in your post and I would tweek a couple of the points that you made. To avoid heated debates ask simply questions that help a JW to draw their own conclusions about the WTBTS such as discussing other dangerous cults and asking jWs how they feel. Instead of using a monotone voice I would recommend using a caring and empathatic voice by always thinking of how to reach a JW's authentic persona instead of saying things that cause them cognitive dissonance and their cult persona to react. The end goal should be to help a JW to critically think for themselves instead of a self-serving goal.

  Instead of claiming that Steve Hassan rips off ideas of other psychologists, can you be more specific about what ideas that Steve Hassan has ripped off? To me referencing others works and giving them credit is not ripping off ideas as much as building on those ideas.

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  Robert
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  paranoia agent

  snare&racket : I think you misunderstood what I wrote, you see its not just about communicating with those who are under psychological coercion, there needs to be a bond/connection between the two before communicating and there is a manner to communicate it, its all in steps and needs to be timed correctly with the right tone of voice and the correct words, even body image and expression counts. This is all science and what I am talking referring to is discussed in a chapter called Strategies of attitude and behaviour change, book is Intro to social psychology 5th edition BPS BLACKWELL

  adamah: Totally agree, but think about it, we to them are monsters, confused not knowing our right hand from our left, the trick is to make them comfortable enough so that they accept you for who you are, a confused monster but likes them for what they are, give them credit, jw's are nice in their own world, they do nice things help other 'brothers' and prevent drugs and possible bad associations like gangs, leave all what’s negative out of the conversation, one is not completely honest but also not dishonest at all.

  Its like a boxing match, lets say you are told that your opponent had ten consecutive wins so you decide not to fight but with some convince with others you fight, only to find out that your opponent is this skinny man so psychologically the fight is already over but the bell rings and the skinny opponent swiftly moves and swings an unexpected left hook knocking you out. The first part is jw ideology, the skinny opponent is an ex-jw with good rapport skills, the swift move is the non expectation of a conversation leading natural about something negative about jw's, and the left hook is a topic that has to cause strong cognitive dissonance.

  ABibleStudent: wrote To avoid heated debates ask simply questions that help a JW to draw their own conclusions about the WTBTS such as discussing other dangerous cults and asking jWs how they feel. Instead of using a monotone voice I would recommend using a caring and empathetic voice by always thinking of how to reach a JW's authentic persona instead of saying things that cause them cognitive dissonance and their cult persona to react. The end goal should be to help a JW to critically think for themselves instead of a self-serving goal.

  Leon Festinger once said "a man with strong conviction is a hard man to change" and "we seek consistencies and avoid inconsistencies”. What he means by this is that if a person puts effort in like time spent and hard labour this persons conviction becomes strong, and when something is presented that is contrary to their beliefs they will seek consistencies that are apart of their world view. This is known as self perception theory and cognitive consistency theory. Inconsistencies are what causes anxiety in the brain or cognitive dissonance and in my opinion the trick is to provide them (at the latter) with an inconsistency so strong like paedophilia or something else that creates (what Ray Franz refers to as) a crisis of conscience.

  You see when you and I were jw's we didn't walked around in the truth and thought of if this religion is possibly false, there were other factors at play here. In my opinion long term jw's become low contemplators’, they don’t think it through well because they don't have to, because they found the true religion and their god asks of them not to worry as long their do as told, locking themselves and throwing away the key
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  jgnat

  Hi, there. I've been working on my JW husband for over ten years. I think your points lack focus and need some work. From Hassan's books I never got the impression that he advocates a confrontational style. Confronting the doctrines directly typically only makes the Witness more defensive (which I think is one of the points you are making).

  1. What does heated argument have to do with right brain/left brain? In a heated argument, logic is out the window and the dinosaur brain takes over (anger/fear/fight/flight). I do think that fear is one of the primary chains that keeps the Witness bound.

  2. I agree to keeping a monotone when talking to the cultist. What does that have to do with being a hypocrite? I'd be more like my genuine self to give my husband a piece of my mind over some idiotic doctrine. There are times I am bland and monotone, and I reserve that when hubby is most in cult mode. No use talking to a robot. I wait until a genuine moment to share how I really feel. I think Witnesses, when most themselves, are open to the genuine feelings of others.

  3. If you want to build empathy, don't use a script! Listen carefully and reflect back so the person knows they've been understood and heard. I would put this as step one.

  4. I am not sure that cognitive dissonance always have a positive effect. In fear, the Witness may be driven further in to the society to reduce the dissonance.
• 

  paranoia agent

  jgnat

  I am not a Hassan fan myself, Hassan is not a pioneer in this and has used many concepts that are not his.

  1What does heated argument have to do with right brain/left brain? In a heated argument, logic is out the window and the dinosaur brain takes over (anger/fear/fight/flight). I do think that fear is one of the primary chains that keeps the Witness bound.

  If you had ever looked into neurology, neuron pulses occurs more on what side with is considered the emotional side than the both sides which is considered normal. JW use of fear is a component but this discussion is a different factor.

  2. I agree to keeping a monotone when talking to the cultist. What does that have to do with being a hypocrite? I'd be more like my genuine self to give my husband a piece of my mind over some idiotic doctrine. There are times I am bland and monotone, and I reserve that when hubby is most in cult mode. No use talking to a robot. I wait until a genuine moment to share how I really feel. I think Witnesses, when most themselves, are open to the genuine feelings of others.

  Hypocrisy is when we accuse something that we ourselves do, but the point I was making was that on a subconscious level they feel that a argument has been won simply by the person acting the way they expected to act, get all heated up etc, there are studies on this. Books by Hassan and Singer teach that rapport is very important.

  4. I am not sure that cognitive dissonance always have a positive effect. In fear, the Witness may be driven further in to the society to reduce the dissonance.

  Dissonance is neither positive or negative, its a state of anxiety cause by two contradictory beliefs. When they are in this state it’s important to have a discussion with them, listen to what they say, in this state of anxiety they will seek consonant information towards the watchtower, timing here is everything, you will need to explain in a calm and non-rude manner so that their consonant information (unless its "yes you are right) is rational.

  E.g. jw- You showed me that news article about the WBTS being fined 27 million, this usually doesn't happen

  me - but its clearly taught of the two witness rule so how can this stop from happening?

  jw - Police need witnesses to, how else will they get evidence

  me - as hold as is this case is they manage to pin point who was involved, police have techniques that may not require witnesses to take the stand, such as conduct interviews and detective work, had they reported the matter this would not be an issue

  jw - they do report this to the police as soon as they find out

  me - as far as I am aware it is not allowed to accuse those who you do not have witnesses for, in that case it is unscriptural to report these matters unless it fits the criteria of the two witness rule, what do you think?

  jw - (now in a strong state of mental anxiety) they have changed it and its not like we did it out of bad will, we try and do good, our best, of course we are not perfect so these things do happen.

  me - (removing any cult consonant information) I understand that, they are the only religion who takes serious concern of the cleanness of its members and the halls, yesterday I heard of drugging dealing going inside and during church so its definitely better, also I understand that you do all things with good intentions following biblical principles, yet these good intentions are hurting people, victims of paedophilia, the shunning policy does not do good to anybody (I used this because a close family member is being shunned, nice guy who they like), I just think that the two witness rule is not up to date with today’s know how and technology.

  Let them have the final say and don’t press on, allow this information to sink in and don't expect any changes, a complete change does not happen overnight but they should be acceptable to more external source information than before.

  Also notice that there are many angles to attack their arguments, but I kept it simple and straight to the point without discussing doctrine or past jw beliefs. The tone of this conversation by jw's got heated in this conversation but by being calm and showing genuine interest and concerned instead of a mocking or a shouting context, they stayed receptive to what I was saying.
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  jgnat

  I know what I am talking about with the brain functions, LOL. I'm a right-brainer myself even though I have also developed a kick-ass logical side. The fear response is coming from the amygdala, and we certainly do not want to trigger this during a heated argument!

  I think we are talking the same thing (other than our relative fandom of Steve Hassan, LOL). I believe if you worked over your instructions and made them more focused they could be very powerful.

  The reason I like Hassan's materials is that they were the first truly practical guide as to how to reach my JW husband. I advocate techniques that work. If you could point me to similar materials from other academics, I would certainly be interested.
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  adamah

  Hi Paranoia Agent,

  Pretty much agree, but perhaps you should've clarified WHO this hypothetical interaction is occurring with, eg a JW who is a total stranger who knocks at your door, or a close family member (eg a child who is a JW)? All of that makes a difference.

  Oh, on this:

  Paranoia Agent Said-

  Its like a boxing match, lets say you are told that your opponent had ten consecutive wins so you decide not to fight but with some convince with others you fight, only to find out that your opponent is this skinny man so psychologically the fight is already over but the bell rings and the skinny opponent swiftly moves and swings an unexpected left hook knocking you out. The first part is jw ideology, the skinny opponent is an ex-jw with good rapport skills, the swift move is the non expectation of a conversation leading natural about something negative about jw's, and the left hook is a topic that has to cause strong cognitive dissonance.

  Hmmm, your choice of analogy speaks spades: interesting that you'd see the analogy of a boxing match as fitting?

  But not that it matters: aside from kidnapping a JW (which is against the law!), you cannot FORCE anyone to think as you'd like them to think, to do what you'd like them to do, i.e. there is no "knock-out punch" to be delivered here since the barriers are not logical, but emotional (i.e. fears) that keep them inside the JWs. Think of it: if you COULD manipulate them to act based on what you'd say, they'd still be controlled by another!

  The greatest fallacy in dealing with a cult member is that there's some silver-bullet, some perfect logical argument that serves as the knock-out "one-two punch" that will FORCE them to "see the light". Nope: read accounts on JWN for a bit, and you'll see that most of those who saw TTATT had SIGNIFICANT MOTIVATION forced upon them (eg being DFed, seeing rampant hypocrisy after dealing with elders, death of a loved one, etc) that led them to be receptive to seeing TTATT. Sure, there ARE exceptions of those who saw TTATT without their cog diss dial being raised to '11' by what they personally experienced, but I'd say such cases are in the minority.

  For even if members cannot (or will not) verbalize their thought-processes to you, some (not ALL, mind you) JWs ARE content being in, and know exactly what they're doing and why they do it. Many JWs ARE perfectly aware that while it's not actually "the (whole) Truth", they enjoy the benefits of being in the group, perhaps enjoy the power, prestige, and control it affords them over others, or even like the idea of others who will tell them what to do (since they've FUBARed their own lives and are dependent on others as their source of power, AKA sheepol), etc. They've made a perfectly-rational decision that to leave the group would "rock the boat" and leaving the group would be too costly in terms of their family and business relationships, so they make the prudent choice to "go along to get along"; some even THRIVE (I think of my brother, who's an elder and big-deal on the local level, delivering talks at conventions; he truly enjoys his life, as it affords him possibilities he'd not have otherwise as an uneducated male working in the building trades).

  Of course, the problem is things can and do change in a heartbeat, and then they get to experience first-hand the hazards of blind allegiance to authority, seeing why it's fundamentally a bad idea.

  Adam
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  ABibleStudent

  paranoia agent - You see when you and I were jw's we didn't walked around in the truth and thought of if this religion is possibly false, there were other factors at play here. In my opinion long term jw's become low contemplators’, they don’t think it through well because they don't have to, because they found the true religion and their god asks of them not to worry as long their do as told, locking themselves and throwing away the key

  Hi paranoia agent, Sorry, although I studied with JWs at the insistance of a former friend who is a "Spiritually Strong" (non-thinking) JW, I was never a JW. I have only be adversely affected by the WTBTS and do not like how they victimize JWs with BITE control techniques.

  I'm sure that JWs remain in the WTBTS for many reasons including fear of losing contact with family and friends, low self-esteem, fear of having to think for themselves, fear of missing out on living in paradise after the Big A, etc. IMHO, If you can find out what motivates a JW to remain in the WTBTS and what makes the authentic persona happy, then you have two powerful keys to help a JW to critically think for themselves if one is patient and knows how to use them. The good thing about JWs is that they behave in predictable ways so it is helpful to have general methods for overcoming their platitudes that the WTBTS has taught them.

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  Robert