This secret answer stuff is hogwash.
The heavenly hope is there for ALL christians not just 144000. All who have faith and accept Jesus' ransom sacrifice have the heavenly hope.
Anointed Experience #1 - Discerning the Body
by Amazing 30 Replies latest jw friends
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SloBoy
could it mean that we should never forget that it was Jeahovah God that made all redemption possible by providing the ' body ' of Jesus to be sacrificed?
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Pathofthorns
I would also be interested in the answer. I would cautiously guess that Yardiff is the closest.
The whole concept of the annointed is interesting in that in theory anyone making such a claim in effect trumps every local position filled by a member of the other sheep. So in effect, the CO was [in theory] the representative of the class you make up, or your representative.
The CO appears to have felt uncomfortable having come face to face with authority given supposedly by God and that which issues from a man-made organization. The reality of this doctrine is a joke when compared to all of the grandios wording and interpretations used in the publications.
The obvious inconsistency is that those who will be ruling over angels should exercise authority over those who have the earthly hope, but the reality is these people usually hold no position what-so-ever and are required to submit to man made appointments.
I suspect the rumored changes to the definition of who constitutes the FDS is designed to close these "loopholes" and inconsistencies and to secure power in the organization for whomever the WT wants to hold power.
Path
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Ginosko
Hi,
My guess. Mat 24:28. The annoited must join together to receive the true spiritual food in God earth organization. The carcass may represent the Jesus Christ body in sacrifice.
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AGuest
Dear Path, peace to you and may I address something you said? Thank you!
The whole concept of the annointed is interesting in that in theory anyone making such a claim in effect trumps every local position filled by a member of the other sheep. So in effect, the CO was [in theory] the representative of the class you make up, or your representative.
I am not sure of your present understanding on the identity of the 'other sheep', but I must tell you that the WTBTS' teaching on it is COMPLETELY false. Their position is that the 'little flock' make up the 144,000 and the 'other sheep' the 'great crowd'.The TRUTH, however, is that the 'little flock' were JEWS, those of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (with a few Levite priests), who comprised the 2-tribe kingdom of JUDAH. However, since the 144,000 are taken from among ALL 12 tribes of 'the sons of Israel', that group (the 144,000) includes Jews, the 'little flock'... AND Samaritans (the others which made up the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel), who are among the 'other sheep'.
So, when my Lord said, "Do not fear, little flock", and "I have other sheep... and they will become ONE flock," he was telling the JEWS that he would also call NON-JEWS, starting with the Samaritans (the first of which was Cornelius and his household), who are ISRAELITES in a fleshly, and then those of the nations, who are NOT Israelites in a fleshly sense. The "calling" would take place thus:
1. The 12 and other Jews were sent to be a witness "in all Judea and Samaria", so that Israel (all 12 tribes) was given FIRST chance to respond. While the choosing STARTED with that group, it has continued FROM that group down to this day.
2. Thereafter, Paul was sent as "an apostle to the NATIONS", to call those Jews who did NOT live in Judea or Samaria, and did NOT ascribe to the Jewish form of worship, as WELL as those of the nations, those who were NOT Jews or Samaritans... NOT "Israel".
By virtue of this, Israel was called FIRST, as "firstfruits", and as that calling progressed, the Way was opened up for the NATIONS to be called as well, simultaneously. So, the "little flock" of Jews... along with the other 10 tribes of Israel and the NATIONS... which make up the 'other sheep'... together make up ONE flock!
It is for THIS reason that John saw the 144,000 FIRST... and then saw the 'great crowd' ALSO standing 'before the throne' and ALSO 'rendering sacred service in the temple'. This is in fulfillment of the 'sacred secret' revealed by Paul that due to their REJECTION of the Christ, the Jews majorily LOST their place in the kingship, to people of the NATIONS... who accepted Christ... who received this 'anointing' (the calling and choosing of them)... by means of faith.
There is only ONE Body, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE Lord... ONE spirit... and ONE hope. For there is only ONE God. And that Body, faith, baptism, spirit and hope derive from that one God, by means of that one Lord, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. ALL of them, little flock and other sheep alike... are 'called' and 'chosen'... thus ALL of them, little flock, other sheep, 144,000 and great crowd alike... are ANOINTED. ALL of them stand before the throne and 'render sacred service in the temple' of God. For it is only priests that can DO so.
I bid you peace... and hope that, by means of the spirit that is in me, holy spirit, granted me by Christ, I have been able to shed a bit of light on one of the gravest and darkest false teachings of the WTBTS, that there are two hopes and two classes, with only one group entering into the kingdom. That... is a LIE. And we know the origin of lies, don't we?
Peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SJ
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bjc2012
Hi Amazing:
I enjoyed your experience mentioned above. I believe it relates a great "truth" about the Governing Body and its true, hidden feelings about the younger "anointed" in their midst.
I think the whole experience you've related shows, even though the C.O. proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was a kooky "nut" case, the sad truth of the whole matter is that the poor soul is simply "parroting" or reflecting crudely, the exact sentiments of the G.B. as regards whether to accept the claims of younger "anointed" as being genuine or not. They simply don't believe these are genuine "brothers of Christ". And that's the real truth of the matter.
You can easily tell this by the written material they provide as "spiritual food in due season" for the flock in general when the subject comes up. These "kooky" ideas about a 1935 "cut-off date" and so on, have been implanted by the G.B. thru their publications, especially those publications written in the more recent years.
For example, I posted this information a little while back on the subject of the younger "anointed" and whether the G.B. really considered them to be genuine "brothers of Christ". Also why these "least of Christ brothers" were never ever consulted nor commonly "used" in serious positions of authority at Bethel Headquarters (Service/Writing Department), or given larger privileges at Assemblies and so on. This careful "distinction" has always been made.
I wrote the following:
--------quote from post-------
"XXX XXXX",
First of all the question of the younger "anointed" not being used by the organization in high positions.
How do you explain the writing and service dept. at Brooklyn Bethel being made up of primarily of those of the "other sheep" for the past 50 years when plenty of the younger "anointed" were available to be used? This is the "seat" of government for all the congregations and where congregational policy is formed. The "other sheep" have occupied these primary positions for 50 years or more, in the face of thousands of "anointed" being available for such duties.
And as for the writing dept. Why are the "anointed" as members of the FD&S, not dominant in this department? Instead, it is the "other sheep" again. And has been so for the last 50 years or so. How do you explain that?
There is a reason for this, I assure you. A very good reason why these things have happened that exposes the WTS' duplicity and deceit.
But another question: "XXX XXXX", how do you explain, the overwhelming bulk of the writing of the all of the various publications over the last 50 years or so, except upon rare occasion, have being done by the "great crowd" and not the "anointed" who are practically non-existent in writing dept?
Who has really been "feeding" the JW brotherhood over the last 50 years, the "other sheep" or the "anointed"? Which group? (Matt. 24:45-47)
And how can the obvious pushing of the "other sheep" ahead of the "anointed" as the G.B. has done, be viewed as pleasing to God, if we are to take the FD&S arrangement seriously? (Matt. 24:45-47)
Well, before you answer, consider this.
Could the real answer lie in the following:
"XXX XXXX", since you have recently become "anointed" within the last 7 years or so, and only baptized within the mid-seventies, I'm sure you are acutely aware that the G.B. would have great reason to doubt your "recent" claim to be of he "anointed". I'm sure you are aware of this.
I'm also sure you are aware of the fact that the WTS has said in numerous articles over and over again, the claims of all "recent" anointees, since the years of 1931-35, should be questioned! The WTS has pointedly said, without leaving any doubt, that these "comparatively recent" self-professed "anointed" ones should "examine" their motives in claiming to be of the "anointed". All those we claim to be "anointed" since the year of 1931-35, need to take another "look" at their "background" and "feelings" about professing to be one of the "chosen" of God. Isn't that so, "XXX XXXX"?
The February 1, 1982 Watchtower pgs. 28, 29 under the subheading: "How Can a Person Be Certain?" breaks it down this way, in the most explicit manner by saying,
"Those sharing in preaching this good news of the Kingdom in modern times are confident that Jehovah God is leading his dedicated servants by means of his visible spirit-begotten organization, the "faithful and discreet slave." (Matthew 24:45-47) Under its direction the heavenly hope was held out, highlighted and stressed until about the year 1935. Then as "light flashed up" to reveal clearly the identify of the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9, the emphasis began to be placed on the earthly hope. (Psalm 97:11) It is reasonable to conclude, therefore, that by that time the full number of the 144,000 would have been nearly completed. Of course, any individuals proving unfaithful would need to be replaced. But, understandably, these would be comparatively few. And by whom would these be replaced? It seems reasonable also to conclude that most likely this heavenly hope would be extended to some who had endured in integrity, who had stuck to their dedication over the years, rather than its being held out to unproved newly dedicated ones. (Compare Luke 22:28-30) ..."
Do you see the problem, "XXX XXXX"?
The Governing Body simply does not believe the "claims" of the recent "anointed". They do not see them as "genuine" anointed brothers of Christ. Not even the "lesser ones", as you claim to be. Not even that! So, they really don't believe you, "XXX XXXX", in your claims to be of the anointed. You are not believed, by your precious Governing Body "anointed" brothers.
And that means, invariably, that your profession of being of the "anointed" is also not to be taken seriously by all of JWs, worldwide, because of this particular man-made doctrine or teaching of 1931-35, the 1931-35 "tradition" of the anointed. That's a fact too. It's the reality of the situation. The cold facts. (See Mark 7:7, 8.)
But, let's continue.
The articles further states to remove any doubt about how they feel about recent "anointees" in the organization,
"...However, from reports at hand it appears that even some newly dedicated Christians have considered themselves to be 'born again.'"
Now, here is the big point, the "dagger-in-the-heart" point. The article says:
"Any who in comparatively recent times dedicated themselves and were baptized and who consider themselves to be "born again" would do well to reflect seriously on the following questions:
1) What reasons have you for feeling that Jehovah God has planted this hope in you?
2) Could it be that your emotional feeling is a holdover from the mistaken belief you previously held while in Babylon the Great that heaven is the destiny of all good people?
3) Or could it be that you feel this way because you had great inward disturbances, that you at first fought against the idea but it gradually won out?
4) But did it win out because you wanted it that way, perhaps even unconsciously?
Such struggles do not of themselves prove that you were "born again".
5) Or do you feel that you have been chosen by God to be one of the 144,000 anointed ones because of your keen appreciation of spiritual things, because of your fondness for deep spiritual truths?
Then note that ever so many who do not profess to be "born again" are "spiritual men" in the fullest sense of the word. (1 Corinthians 2:14, 15) And there is no question about the spiritual strength of those men and women of faith listed in Hebrews chapter 11. None of those were "born again." All of them looked forward to "a better resurrection [to life under God's kingdom] right here on this earth. -- Hebrews 11:35
6) Or might it be that you feel the way you do because of your displaying more zeal than some of your fellow Christians?
But that of itself could not be the determining factor, for the apostle Paul time and again found it necessary to counsel anointed Christians in regard to taking their spiritual obligations seriously. (1 Corinthians 11:20-22); Galatians 4:9-11)
7) Or could it be that your profession to be of the anointed is due to a lack of modesty?
There are some who quite recently have professed to be of the anointed but who, instead of building unity in the congregation, have felt they must have their own Bible study group. To the contrary, mature "born again" Christians remain close to the local congregation even though it is largely comprised of the "other sheep," (John 10:16) However, a person's being "born again" is a personal matter between God and each Christian. No one should judge another on this question. -- Romans 14:10"
[my thought: I think the WTS just did, that is "judge" on the matter. And I believe you, "XXX XXXX" will concur with me on that opinion too. ]
The article continues:
"From all the foregoing what do we conclude [on this matter of recent JWs being anointed]? That Jehovah God is just and righteous, wise and loving. He has the right to assign his intelligent creatures to their respective roles -- some to serve his purpose in the heavens, others to do so here upon earth. It is not as though the heavenly prize is something to be gained by personal choice and effort, or to be coveted selfishly. It is unique and no human creature may presume upon it. It is indeed a marvelous undeserved kindness that Jehovah God bestows on a few of his creatures, in the furtherance of his wise, just and loving purposes, but not due to any special merit on their own part. Being "born again" is limited to these. (Romans 3:23, 24; 11:33-36) ... No one should be so presumptuous as to say to Jehovah, "What have you been doing?"
End of quote from article.
"XXX XXXX", how would you like to sit thru this particular WTS study with your loving brothers "throwing tomatoes" all thru-out the meeting at you, the recent "anointee" of God. And for months after this, "pot-shots" being taken at you. How friendly would the congregation be to you, while you were trying to maintain your personal claim to be of the "anointed", and the G.B. and FD&S dispensing this type of information against you, and your personal claim to be of the "anointed"? Perhaps, some on this board have had that "experience". It would not be pleasant, I assure you.
But my main point in bringing up this information is this: After reading the above, why do you think the G.B. does not use nor promote, as they say, "any who in comparatively recent times" have dedicated themselves to Jehovah God and have "claimed" or "professed" the heavenly hope, to ultra high positions of authority within this organization?
They listed 7 reasons. They didn't leave us in the dark about this whole issue.
All of the reasons they gave are totally unscriptural, when examined. Again, I know you concur. You'd have to, to maintain your claim to being of the anointed. And yet, when they finish their listing of all of their reasons why people like you can't possibly be of the "anointed", they conclude by saying, "well...we can't judge". What hypocrites!
But lets take another example. This is not the only time, they've emphasized their personal preference in this matter, ahead of God's Will. Nor the first time, they have put their man-made "tradition" ahead of God's Word. (Mark 7:7, 8)
Again, the February 15th 1985 Watchtower pg. 21 par. 18, 19 comments directly on this very matter. Under the subheading called: "THE NEED FOR SELF-EXAMINATION", the publication said,
"The modern history of Jehovah's Witnesses shows that since 1931 more attention started to be given to the "other sheep" through the Kingdom message...What does this new emphasis indicate? Surely that the gathering of the "little flock" was drawing to a close and the time had come for Jesus, through the administration of the "the faithful and discreet slave," to turn his attention to gathering the "other sheep."
The article continues:
"With the foregoing in mind, we say to ALL THOSE WHO HAVE RECENTLY become associated with Jehovah's people and who may have made some claim to being one of the anointed class: EXAMINE CAREFULLY your relationship with Jehovah. ASK YOURSELF, is the heavenly hope that I profess to have somehow
(1) a holdover from a previously held church teaching that all church members go to heaven?
(2) Is my hope in any way connected with some selfish desire or emotional feelings."
In other words, are you seeking "selfish" prominence of some kind? Are you emotionally disturbed? Unbalanced?
Now after reading that, do you think the G.B. and WTS headquarters staff believes the more recent "anointees", to truly be spirit-begotten by God? Or, just poor, misguided individuals who have some "emotional" problem of some kind?
Does the Governing Body feel the more recent "anointees" are ones truly worthy of heavy spiritual responsibility and privilege within the organization of JWs, like being a part of Writing or Service Departments?
I don't think so.
-------end of post-------
These WT articles mentioned above came out around the same time of your experience above. 1982-85, early to mid 1980s. So, these printed statements typified the prevalent thinking among the JW "brotherhood" at that time about the young "anointed". Which means the kooky C.O. was just parroting what he heard from an actual G.B. member, who no doubt expressed the "private" sentiments of the entire Governing Body on the matter. And we know, they haven't changed their thinking on this unscriptural 1935 "cut-off date" teaching, to this day.
So any younger "anointed" among us today, who are within the JW "brotherhood", can simply expect more of the same treatment exemplied by your experience. No change in sight.
bjc
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LittleToe
Sorry, I missed this thread, only finding it after seeing the part two thread.
Matt.24:28.
This would have been interpretted but the C.O. in a typical dub context of verse 45.I also agree that all Christians are "anointed".
It's only the borg that has assimilated that expression to produce a hierarchy.
A key passage is actually Romans 8:15,16. -
Amazing
Hi Prisca and all:
This secret answer stuff is hogwash.
I agree. IN Christian theology, anointing is a simple feature for all Christians.
The CO surprised me with his line of questioning, and that caused my hesitation. But he phrased the question as though it is something the GB looks for to discern whether a JW Aointed is fake or not. It was an odd experience. Though, I suspect that with the Society backing me up on this one event, suggests that the CO was stretching the envelop.
I will give the answer after a few more have had time to respond. And I will also reveal something the CO added to this.
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Jeremy Bravo
I want an answer to this one...
Hi Amazing,
Since "discern" can mean "differentiate" I would have to say that the CO wanted to know what differentiates the body. From what? I say the head. Therefore my guess is that:
144,000 = body
Christ = headAlthough the "body" was set to rule, Jesus Christ is still the boss and must be recognized as such.
JB
Ralph: "...and that's where I saw the leprechaun."
Bart: "The leprechaun, hunh?"
Ralph: "He told me to burn things." -
Nathan Natas
Hi Amazing,
You promised, "I will give the answer after a few more have had time to respond. And I will also reveal something the CO added to this."
I'm hoping that sufficient time has passed that you will feel OK about revealing the CO's secret decoder ring and password...