by Jeffro 22 Replies latest watchtower bible
I've reviewed the chart and added a Metonic cycle.
Note that different dates have been marked as correct (green). This is because Nisan 14 begins at sunset, but the Gregorian date (which starts the previous midnight) chosen for the Memorial should technically be the previous day. So they actually get the date correct less often than previously indicated. I have also left Memorial dates black where a date hasn't been provided in Watch Tower Society literature.
great reference research jeffro
besty:
great reference research jeffro
Thanks.
I notice there's no sign of 'scholar' to defend his precious 'celebrated Watch Tower scholars'.
I think it may be helpful if, during the next Memorial season in particular, readers here review with JW family and friends the impossibility of the claims about Nisan made in the November 2011 Watchtower.
Losingit asks "Do they get anything right?" as I have said before, my default position is, " if the WT says it, it is probably wrong."
Certainly from my examination, all of their unique teachings and practices are wrong. ( I am not referring to things they do not teach Immortal Soul,Trinity etc).
The Memorial as they practice it is wrong on so many levels, not least because they make it such a sombre , gloomy occasion.
As to the point you make Jeffro, that Jesus was iniataiting an event "in place of the Passover", I do not quite see the reasoning for that, surely the Jewish Christians, including Paul, long after Jesus death continued to celebrate Passover ?
As to considering it a replacement for Passover, that gentiles could celebrate on its own, no doubt that happened, and more than likely they would do it, if they were only doing it once a year, at the time the Lamb was either slaughtered (preperation day), or sacrificed (perhaps more likely), which events occur on different ,consecutive, days, which again puts Nisan 14 in doubt. Not that the WT can even get Nisan 14 right as you ably show.
Phizzy:
As to the point you make Jeffro, that Jesus was iniataiting an event "in place of the Passover",
I was just noting what may be implied by the biblical account. I am not personally convinced that Jesus initiated the ceremony at all.
It is more likely that the ceremony and origin story developed from earlier pagan rituals about consuming symbolic flesh and blood of 'god-men'.
1009:
The 'brothers' simply do not use the 'Metonic cycle'. According to Insight that system started about 500 B.C.
Insight actually says, "Such a 19-year cycle is commonly called the Metonic cycle, after the Greek mathematician Meton (of the fifth century B.C.E.), although there is also evidence that such a cycle was perfected before him by the Babylonians."
During the Neo-Babylonian period, the Jews adopted the Babylonian calendar, which is where they got the name Nisan (and their other month names), so there's no reason to believe the Jews used a different starting point for Nisan.
The Memorial was instituted long after the introduction of the Metonic cycle, regardless of how the Jews were counting months prior to 500 BCE.
1009:
According to Insight that system started about 500 B.C.
Just to clarify a bit...
It is indeed possible that the Babylonians weren't using the 19-year Metonic cycle as early as the early 6th century BCE. In fact, they almost certianly weren't.
The Babylonians at the time had 360 days in a standard year, so their calendar required an additional month every 5 or 6 years to make up for the length of a solar year, as opposed to the seven adjustments out of every 19 years in the Metonic cycle.
However, their year was based on the same principle that intercalary years were only inserted to adjust for the vernal equinox (late March) . For this reason, the older Babylonian Nisanu could still never begin in May.
By the reckoning of the old Babylonian calendar, in 568 BCE, 1 Nisanu fell in April rather than March, and definitely not in May.
Paul (of the NT) was the earliest recorded writer. He said that he received his ideas directly from the resurrected Lord; he did not receive his ideas from any human.
He is the first person who dreamt up this "Last Supper" and this was copied (virtually word-for-word) by the writers of the Synoptic Gospels (Mark, later by Matthew and many decades later by Luke) - none of whom was in attendance at this Meal. The writers of John's Gospel place this event at a different location.
The idea of Jesus' death being taking place at Passover time was Paul's idea; it most likely did not happen at that time. The writers were not present at many of the events described as taking place at the trial or at the pillow talk by Pontius Pilate's wife. There was no arrangement for the release of a prisoner, such as Barabbas (meaning "son of the father).
Do not build a chronology from such a feeble foundation.
Doug
Doug Mason:
The idea of Jesus' death being taking place at Passover time was Paul's idea; it most likely did not happen at that time.
Indeed. As I said earlier in this thread, "There's no evidence that it was Jesus who initiated 'the Lord's evening meal', and it may have been an invention by 'Paul'."
Do not build a chronology from such a feeble foundation.
Your objection is irrelevant misdirection. No 'chronology' is being 'built' from the date of the 'Memorial'.
The method of dating used for the event - regardless of the spurious origin of the event - simply confirms that Nisan never begins in May.
The basis for the the date of the 'Memorial' and the fact that Nisan never begins in May is that intercalary months are only added when the year would otherwise be running too early.
There has been one thing that has bothered me. Are we to celebrate this date at the exact time that it occurred in Israel or are we to to celebrate it according to the local time zone.
