Are people like Abraham, Isaiah or Jeremiah in heaven ?

by Durden 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Durden

    Hi everyone !!!

    I am discussing with my father about various subjects and this is one of them.

    What arguments can I use to support this "doctrine" (so to say) ?

    I am looking for texts to support this (i knew quite a few, I just to learn something new)

    Thanks in advance


  • marmot

    Have you ever researched the patriarchs? Like REAL research, not watchtower CD-ROM or bible verse cross-indexing. I recommend reading "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

    It'll flip your view of the bible and its early writers on its ear.

  • mP


    - married his half sister

    GEN 20:12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

    -grabbed other mens testicles when taking an oath

    GEN 24:2 And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh :

    24:3 And I will make thee swear by the LORD , the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites , among whom I dwell:

    Why doesnt your father copy him ?

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Are you speaking of the doctrine that man has an eternal spirit? Or are you asking if Abraham and other patriarchs and/or prophets are now in Heaven?

    Regarding the latter, Heaven, as it pertains to us, is not yet in existence. It is what the earth will become after our resurrections. The inhabitants of the earth were first destroyed by water, which symbolized its baptism. Next, it will be cleansed by fire, which represents the baptism of fire and the Holy Spirit. Finally, at the end of the Millennium, this world will go through a “death” and “resurrection” of its own. After the former, the earth will be instantly transformed into the abode of the righteous. There will be no “paradise earth” with gardens and eternal picnics and family reunions that will last forever. Man’s resurrection, according to the apostle John, will be glorious and like unto the Savior’s resurrection. The earth will be radiating glory, and those inhabiting it will be beings of incredible light and glory. The idea that man will go back to being like Adam and Eve is incredibly WRONG. As the Greek Orthodox teach, “Jesus became as we are so that we might become as he is.” That’s why Adam and Eve fell, so that, through Christ, we might take a giant leap upward and become one with Christ and the Father. In short, the Father had every intention that man would fall. And through Jesus, we might not again become as Adam, but become as Christ in power and light, inheriting all that the Father has.

    If God the Father is God, and Jesus Christ is God, and we can be one with them, then we have incredible potential. But as Paul wrote: “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the father of spirits, and live?” (Hebrews 12:9) Also: “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of god: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:14-18)

    For the Jehovah's Witnesses to believe that man has no spirit, how do they reconcile the above? The prophet Zechariah wrote: “ The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord , which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. ” (Zech. 12:1)

    I cannot conceive of God being the father of “breaths” instead of spirits. Or forming the breath of man within him. True, the word breath in both Hebrew and Greek can mean either breath or spirit. One must use context to differentiate between the two in any given passage, and most Christians (and Jews) in many cases translates the words “spirit” while the Adventists, many times in the face of overwhelming logic, do just the reverse. In school we covered both interpretations in the various languages and passages, and while people on both sides of the issue can push their interpretations, our professor said, the Adventists are in the distinct minority.

  • sarahsmile

    Moot point based on faith and view points. Abraham and Sarah were wondering around seeking a home but saw NEW Jersualem from afar! Are they now in a spiritual bodies in heaven? Moot not worth arguing about the ressurection. I hope so! Who really knows that answer unless you want to debate when the first resurrection begins.

    Hehrew 11

    By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.

    13 These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

  • mP


    Abraham failed on two occassions to demonstrate faith. Both times he let his sister be screwed by the king of Abelmalek(sp) & pharaoh. I wouldnt call that faith i would call it chicken.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Mp: Both times [Abraham] let his sister be screwed by the king of Abelmalek(sp) & pharaoh.

    I assume you mean figuratively. Abraham never compromised his wife's virtue in the stories.

  • mP

    cold steel

    Read the accounts, in both cases he hides the truth about his relationship with sarah by playing word games. The text is quite clear that Abraham prostituted Sarah to both the K & P. In both cases he gets significant material rewards for her services. Thats the basic definition of prostitution.

    He states Sarah is his sister(which is true) but inconveniently leaves out she is his wife out of fear. One has to wonder why he was so fearful given his personal chats with Jehovah. WHy didnt he ask Jehovah for help ? Was Jehovah busy or was he an imaginery friend that only existed in his mind when the chips were down?

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    I have read the accounts many times. Here’s what I have:

    The King, Abimelech, took Sarah, who was in her ninetieth year, and the Lord came to him in a dream.

    “Behold,” he said, “thou hast taken a woman which is not thine own, for she is Abraham's wife. Thou shalt [thus] return her unto Abraham, for if thou do it not thou shalt die....”

    And the king, fearful of judgment, said, “Lord, wilt thou slay me, and also a righteous nation? Behold, said he not unto me, ‘She is my sister?’ And she, even she herself said, ‘He is my brother;’ and in the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands have I done this.”

    And God replied, “Yea, I know that thou didst do this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me; therefore I suffered thee not to touch her. Now, therefore, restore the man's wife to him, for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee and thou shalt live; and if thou restore her not to him thou shalt surely die; thou and all that are thine.”

    So thus we see that Yahweh was monitoring the situation after all. And he suffered the King not to touch her and thus withheld him “from sinning against me.”

    Although we don’t have much detail in the story of Pharaoh, several decades before, I’d be willing to bet that the Lord brought Abraham and Sarah through it as he did Abimelech; perhaps that’s why he felt comfortable in lying the second time—because he knew the Lord would preserve her.

  • mP

    I dont think the age has any significance. Most of the age numbers are nonsense anyway, they are just placeholders to inform us that time has passed. Nobody believes Sarah had a Isaac when she was 100 or that Abrahams father lived to be 300 etc.

    I think these scriptures are telling. Its basically admission that Jehovah is imaginery, because without the king fearing the idea of jehovah he has nothing to worry. If j were physically real then he would not have taken Sarah to begin with. This story is basically telling us that women re goods to be bartered. At no stage does sarah get a say, and she knows her place by not attempting to resist or say anything.

    20:10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?

    20:11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.

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