Am I an "apostate"?

by 4christ 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • detective

    I think you fall into the "opposer" category.

  • BluesBrother

    Liberty is about right, If the J W is not experienced or can't be bothered then they make an excuse an leave, searching for a more gullible sheep.

    Some C O's would tell us not to waste time with people like you. Mind you, some witnesses would rise to the occasion. If my Misses called, you would be in for one hell of a debate!.

  • seedy3

    Answers as a JW would see them

    Q#1- yes

    Q#2- yes

    Q#3- Ummmmm well, he is not a false god, but not the true god, so Hmmm.... but I know he is not a false god....... he can't be the one and only true god.......... ummmm, I'd better call my elders.


  • Hyghlandyr

    One dude said:

    The Watchtower mis defines apostacy as leaving a religious organization. True apostates are those who leave God and Christ, not those who leave a particular religious organization.

    The watchtower has indeed properly defined the term apostate. Anyone that leaves any religion, faith, belief, philosophy, world view, political party, army camp, corporation, is rightly termed an apostate. Paul misapplied the term when he claimed that those who left him had automatically left god.

    And there is the mistake. By leaving Paul, or the watchtower, or the catholics, or the democrats, they are in fact apostates. However, this does not mean, that leaving a specific religion, you have left god, or a specific god, say for instance the god of Paul. One might apostacize away from paul and still be following Yahweh. One might leave the witnesess or catholics and still be a christian.

    Another mistake commonly made is that an Apostate is automatically an opposer. This too is not always the case. I myself am content to let the witnesses continue, though I am the Anti-Christ. By Johns defintion, since I deny the earthly incarnation of Yeshua Ben Yosef. Still I do not seek to prevent people from worshipping him or Yahweh. Too, if a specific witness wants to get the courage to go to a meeting I will encourage them.

    Now as to the witnesses calling you an apostate. Sure some might do it. But the watchtower technically would address you as an opposer. Also some of the older watchtowers contained the idea that it was the annointed that could only be apostates. Which of course is a misdefinition. So they are correct, according to the meaning of the word that anyone that leaves is an apostate, but incorrect in their understanding that an apostate is automatically an opposer.

    Now in regards to question #3. You are making, as many apostates, and opposers do, a fundamental error in understanding the teachings of Jehovahs Witnesses. You assume that because Jesus is in their understanding, A god, then he must either be A TRUE God, or a FALSE God. But this is neither the teaching of the bible, in reference to the term god, nor the teaching of the witnesses.

    God, is a generic term, contained in many other words, Like Elohim (gods), El Shadai (God Almighty), El Adonai (God Lords adonai being plural), and yes Ba-El, Lord. Ba-El, or Baal, is often used in reference to Husbands, the witnesses translating it as, Husbandly Owner.

    Now god, is merely word, both in ancient languages and modern, at its root, that means simply, one that exercises power or autority over another. Thus you have talk of, The Gods of the nations, There are many gods and many lords, their god is their belly, he called them gods to whom the word of god came (that is the judges in Israel who had authority over others). So the word god is a very generic term that was applied both in the bible and other writings of the hebrews, and of the christians (EL and THEO respectively) to many various entities, things and qualities, as mentioned with the belly.

    There is of course an opinion, and the general consensus that those gods were different from the Creator of all life, the Grand God, Yahweh. Of course if I really got onto that, and hebrew polytheism, you might not like what I have to say, so I will let that rest. Nevertheless there is a distinction between that God Yahweh, and other gods, such as the belly, judges appointed by Yahweh, Kings, and yes even Jesus. And when I say there is a distinction, I am speaking specifically, in the mind, and writings of Jehovahs Witnesses. At least with the other things, there is also a clear distinction between Yahweh and them. As to whether there is biblically between Yahweh and Jesus, well that is the arguement in the end isn't it?

    But I will say this to you sir. Using that question

    Is Jesus a True God or a False God
    simply fails to understand the very nature of the doctrines of Jehovahs Witnesses.

    I would offer you some quality arguements to use when speaking to jehovahs witnesses, but of course it is generally fruitless. Besides that you are as deluded as they are, seeing that you are no doubt of the Race of Adamites, and a believer in the fables of the bible.

    Whether there is a trinity, or not, is not really the question. Rather, what is the evidence that your yeshua ben yosef even walked the ground. Thus far The Fish People have only offered me silly tales of little girls in grade school as evidence.

  • rhett
    1. Is Jehovah the Lord?
    2. Is Jesus the Savior?
    3. Is Jesus a true god or a false god?

    No, no, and no. If you ask a person who doesn't believe in the bible what do you expect them to say?

  • Carmel

    What is it you want, an argument about bibdefs or acceptance by us exers here? I can answer your questions, don't take a dumb dubby to do that, but then what if you didn't like the answers?

    Me thinks yer trawling fer a fight!

    carmel who thinks trolling is too inefficient and a waste of bait.

  • apostate man
    apostate man

    4christ, I have never been an JW, never will be. My name suggests that I was. However, my understanding was that ANYTHING not related to "them" was apostate. Its one of those words that they like to sling around, which is why I chose it.

    Break the chains that bind you,
    unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing.
  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    If you want to be apostate you have to be baptized.

    Previously this could involve years of study and anguish. Today there's a better way -- the FAST TRACK to apostacy! By popular demand!
    We can set up a drive-thru window at the Kingdom hall with a bathtub full of water and a judicial committee chompin' at the bit. Just let us know what weekend is convenient. Simply answer the questions, get dunked, them tell them to shove it.

  • COMF

    4Christ sakes...

  • 4christ

    Thank you for your comments everyone
    Blues brother: sounds like your wife is very strong in her faith! I havent yet met a JW who was.
    highlandyr: a very thoughtful reply. I think we would have to start a whole new thread to address the issue of whether there is any God at all, or whether there was a Jesus Christ. I believe there is an abundance of evidence that Jesus did walk the earth, the twenty seven new testaments documents aside, and most(not all, i said MOST) historians would agree with that. The issue I broach is, given that the Bible is God's word, what does it actually say? If you don't believe in the bible at all, the questions i ask are irrelevant to you. I understand where your coming from, its only been a few short years since I had much the same opinion you do. BTW, I am a "ma'am" not a sir. :)

    Carmel: I don't see why you would call me a "troll" isnt this the place to debate issues relating to JW's? Am I a troll because I am putting my thoughts in the form of questions? JW's and their doctrines have personally affected my life and if you don't think i have as much right to be here as anyone else, i am sorry you feel that way but i am not leaving. Sure, I would like to be accepted by this group but as who I am. What could I write that would make you like me? Would you prefer I wrote only comments you would agree with? What constitutes "troll"? BTW, what does bibdefs mean? Forgive my ignorance. I am not looking for a "fight", simply an open debate on what it is the bible actually teaches.

    Rhett: cute..... i am asking JW's who do believe in the bible. :) I would expect someone who doesnt believe the bible to reply just as you have.

    apostate man: your comment illiustrates why i asked the original question, i was under the impression that anything that contradicts the witnesses was "apostate"
    I ask the questions with the given understanding that the bible is indeed the word of God. The point about the questions is that using JW logic none can be answered and agree with scripture. If the JW reply would be what seedy3 said, i have more questions:
    1. How can Jehovah be the Lord if the Bible clearly states that Jesus is the one Lord? 1cor 8:6
    2.How can Jesus be the Savior if the Bible clearly states there is no savior besides God? Is43:11
    3. If something, anything, is not true, doesnt it make sense that it must be false?

    The point I am trying to make is that the JW's do NOT teach accurately what the Bible says, although they drop mags off at my house that go on and on about making sure one has "accurate knowledge". They would like to convert my family and my neighbors to their religion. They come to my home and tell me i'm going to die in Armageddon if i dont join their group. They seek out Christians who are weak in their knowledge and proceed to dole out their false teachings. If it makes me a "troll" because i am challenging their teachings and not just complianing about the shunning, the molestation, the deaths, and all the other stuff(which i do think those things are important and applaud those who expose the WT on those subjects) well i guess i am a troll.

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