*de-lurk* yet another life story...

by iggy_the_fish 21 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Elsewhere

    Great story! I can relate to what you said: "I will be... a scared 10 year old boy who just wants to agree with everyone so they will say what a good boy I am." That is what kept me in the bOrg for 25 years.

    By the way, I'd like to suggest your tag line be: "I have to congratulate the Jehovah’s Witnesses for the sheer genius of teaching that two entirely contradictory concepts such as war and peace are simultaneously signs that the end is near."

    I love it!

    "As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible" - The Watchtower, April 15, 1928, p. 126
    Believe in yourself, not mythology.
    <x ><

  • amccullough

    I enjoyed your post, it was well written and required no patience to read. There is not much about your argument that I can pick apart. The only bits I have comments on are

    1995 Watchtower used the phrase “Jehovah’s people have at times

    I always took that as speaking about Jehovah's people as a whole, including the GB and boys at Bethel and never thought of it as referring to the rank & file. I'm not sure which inference was intended when it was written.

    If a brother or sister before 1995 had said they belived in a figurative interpretation of “this generation” they would have been disfellowshipped, would they not?

    Even as a teenager and a Ministerial Servant, I had always told other Brothers/Sisters, Elders, etc, that I didn't think it was a literal prophecy as that would have allowed the whole world to guesstimate the coming of Armageddon and it would not allow it to come as "a thief in the night." However, I was always considered as being "different" so perhaps I was viewed as a non-threat.

  • Abaddon

    Hi iggy; fellow brit here, albeit an ex-pat (I live in Holland now).

    This made me laugh;

    "Bloody hell! They don’t tell you that sort of stuff at meetings do they!"


    In addition to the two books you are reading, I would suggest you investigate the biological sciences.

    You are attacking the paradigm that has dominated your life by pruning the branches, and have not yet looked to the roots.

    The Borg (I guess you've picked up on that wonderfully droll name for the Dubbies (there's another one)) are disbelivable on Organisational, Scriptual and a Scientific basis.

    Obviously the Organisational twatery is covered nicely by CoC. GTR is great for Scriptual debunking (and it ties in nicely with Coc as it is refered to there).

    However, these are branches. The root is the belief in god.

    Now, you're welcome to keep that; hell, I can't prove other wise.

    But, having exposed the Organisational and Scriptual shortcomings of the Borg, maybe you need to decide for yourself if there is a god... if you think there isn't, then everything else is rather irrelevant.

    Personally speaking, I didn't disprove god. You can't.

    But, Biblegod is a hugely illogical creature ("The Bible in 12 words; Old Testament; don't piss god off. New Testament; be nice to everyone"), and most arguements regarding a loving, concerned creator are just applied wishful thinking. If there is a god, he's not around that much. If he cared, there would be proof, not some vast game of ineffability and 'belief', with no one being able to differentiate between a million claims to rightness. A reasonable god wouldn't allow that.

    This is my opinion, not what I expect you to have.

    But do look into it; Richard Dawkins is a good starting point, although if you've got a scientific background, just reading some textbooks will be a start, as you have been lied to as much about the creation evolution debate as the other things you are currently investigating.

    All the best and glad to see you here.

  • TR

    Hi Iggy, and welcome!

    I’m ashamed to say that I thought very little of the immense human suffering surrounding those events, so wrapped up was I in my own panic about what was to happen to the earth. If anything was going to start the Great Tribulation, then this was surely it.
    Unfortunately, I believe most JWs think this way. That's why it's so easy for them to welcome 'geddon, when they think most people will die.


    Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America- Washington Division

  • Carmel

    Welcome Iggy! I think I've seen you over at H20...? Anyway, it sounds like you could use a good dose of a religion that is consonant with science, and by that I don't mean one that trys to re-define what science is to make it match its doctrins. Keep thinking and questioning. If you have the will to keep trying and testing, you'll find what you are looking for.

    Hope you stick around. There's gold in them thar hills!



  • iggy_the_fish

    Thanks again for the welcomes.


    Hello! I’m afraid I’d started to rant a bit when I started talking about the “this generation” thing, it’s a touchy subject for me, because I didn’t find out they’d changed the doctrine until this year, over 6 years after the event! I could have kicked myself. If I’d known earlier, I’d have saved myself some worry! My gripe about the “this generation” retraction is that the governing body sanctioned the use of the (admittedly, in my opinion) evasive phrase “Jehovah’s people have at times speculated….”, when they could have used a more honest and straightforward form of words. I’m presuming the governing body are intelligent men (regardless of whether one might think of them as saints or arseholes, they are certainly intelligent saints or intelligent arseholes!), so I can’t see how their consciences let them sanction the ambiguous phrase “Jehovah’s people have at times speculated…”. It’s a small point, I know. I feel much more secure about the 607/587 thing.

    If they had been right about their previous interpretation of “this generation”, then instead of saying Armageddon will come as “a thief in the night”, we could have said something like Armageddon will come as “a thief in one night next week, probably before Friday”. Just a thought…


    Greetings. As for my belief in God, this will have to wait a while. Investigating things up to the level I have done so far has been difficult. I certainly agree with you that, if there is a God, he has very little to do with us at this time. It is a real pity that the fossil record is so thin. It would be useful to pop down to the natural history museum and visit the ape-man exhibition, where some of the many thousands of ape-man skeletons were on display, charting our smooth transition from chimp to chap over the millenia. Unfortunately, it ain’t so. The evidence for evolution just seems so open to interpretation. The way I see it, I belive in God, and it’s just a switch that’s stuck on in my mind. It really doesn’t affect me one way or the other. There are no murders, robberies, deviant sexual acts or frauds that I’m desperate to commit, but my belief in God is holding me back. It’s just that the cost/benefit analysis of deprograming myself from my belief in God doesn’t add up at the moment. It might take years for me to deprogram myself from my belief in God, and for what benefit? Maybe in the future I’ll reconsider, then be sure I’ll come-a-knocking on your door for some advice. At the moment I’m much more worried about David Beckham’s left second metatarsal bone.

  • Xander

    evidence for evolution just seems so open to interpretation

    Visit talkorigins.org (really, do, VERY GOOD SITE - go to the 'archive' page and read the "FAQ" - lots of good stuff summarized in it)

    In short, abiogenesis (that life arose from non-life) might be in question. (IE., there are decent arguments on both sides)

    Evolution itself, though, isn't. Fossil evidence shows it has happened. Experiments and observation prove it STILL IS happening. Common sense dictates it will continue to happen.

    Xander F
    (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana

  • AlanF

    Nice to meet you, Iggy! Most of us on this board have tackled the same problems you've described, so we know where you're coming from.

    You're absolutely right about the Society's use of the phrase "Jehovah's people have at times speculated...". It's a deliberate attempt to turn attention away from the real culprits -- the GB and their henchmen -- by making it sound like the entire JW community came up with and agreed to the speculations. Of course, only the Society's leaders came up with such nonsense, but the rank & file agreed by definition because any who did not either quit or were disfellowshipped. There are other instances of this sort of weasel language in WTS literature.

    As for the creation/evolution thing, you probably have enough to worry about right now than to try to deal with it definitively. In the long run, given your profession and your newfound view of the JWs, you will assuredly deal with it. If you want to see how I personally dealt with these things, take a look at the material at this link http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm and look at anything having to do with science, creation/evolution, the flood, an so forth.


  • Xander

    AlanF - I would put forth that each person may be different on this. It was, in fact, the astounding evidence in favor of evolution (and, specifically, the direct contradiction with what is known of the order life came to the earth with what is in Genesis) that was part of what started me questioning the org.

    Of course, the orgs inflexible "Sorry, we're always right, you're always wrong, go away" policies became very evident then.

    Xander F
    (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana

  • Abaddon

    iggy; "It might take years for me to deprogram myself from my belief in God, and for what benefit?"

    Huge benefit mate. You've wasted time, like we all did, living a lie spun by the WTBTS. Why waste more time finding out what all the lies of the WTBTS are, when the whole god idea might just be another lie?

    It would be like washing and polishing an imaginary car on SUnday morning.

    The sites referenced by other regarding evolution are excellent; your reply indicates that you have swallowed the society line on evolution hook, line and sinker - like we all did. Also try http://www.observer.org/ there's an excellent review there of one or two of the Borg's evolution books (the Creation and Creator books I think) that will have a major impact on your thinking.

    All the best again, and remember, you don't have to believe what we believe, we're just giving you pointers to things we found useful.

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