Neanderthals, Early Modern Humans, and a Creator

by Comatose 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Vidiot

  Moshe - "The WT writers know they have to ignore this ancient human stuff- or risk stampeding the horses out of the KH."

  Oh, totally.

  As far back as the age of 12, I grasped (intuitively) that if evolution were somehow proven in such a way that JWs had no choice but to accept it, the WTS wouldn’t survive. Same thing with ET disclosure.

  Funny; they used to try and actively debunk carbon dating, and had no problem cribbing "worldy" creationist ideas like Flood Geology. They don't try that kind of thing anymore; it's been too effectively discredited in the public domain.

  Remember the Awake! I mentioned last page? These days, they're at the point where they simply (if indirectly) acknowledge that if evolution's true, the WTS's theological foundation (and thusly the WTS itself) has no legitimacy; therefore evolution must be false.

  I suppose it's a little more honest.

  cofty - "The borg see it in terms of this silly Jesus-Adam equivalence."

  It ain’t just the WT; most fundamentalist Protestant denominations subscribe to a variation of "Ransom Sacrifice" theology.

  It’s a conservative thing.
• 

  cofty

  most fundamentalist Protestant denominations subscribe to a variation of "Ransom Sacrifice" theology.

  The Jesus-Adam link is not significant in Protestant theology. Vicarious punishment is the main thing.
• 

  Vidiot

  Well, I did say fundamentalist Protestant theology (which WT theology is, whether it wants to admit it or not).

  I've heard other Biblical literalist pastors and reverends essentially confirm it; the details vary from denom to denom, but the basic framework remains:

  God's perfect ('cause he's f**king God, duh), therefore, his creations must be "perfect", too ('cause a perfect God couldn't/wouldn't create imperfectly), but human beings are most definately not perfect (really, really imperfect, even in secular conservative ideology), thus creating a paradox.

  The only explanation (to them) is that someone, somewhere, f**ked it all up; the Genesis creation account (married to some passages in the NT) provides a nice tidy little narrative explaining how it got all f**ked up, and more importantly, how it will get fixed (doesn't hurt that it implies that humanity was once - and will be again - in a semi-divine state, either).

  Problem is, it only really works if the Genesis creation account is viewed as literal history, rather than allegory.
• 

  Comatose

  Neanderthals are a huge piece of the puzzle for realizing that universal sovereignty is bunk. If you were like me and tried to find ways to make Neanderthals somehow still fit regardless of the logic, then all you have to do is realize there are many other unfitting pieces. Like god not ever letting humans do their thing. He always steps in and interferes. How is that impartial I asked myself. Then realizing there are so many inconsistencies in the gospels. They don't even have what god said at Jesus baptism right. How could inspiration not get that right? It's got to be one of the most important moments in history for the religious. The list just grows as you look deeper. Most JWs do not study the bible as deeply as most of us have ironically.
• 

  Julia Orwell

  They don't have the time, what with all the meetings, witnessing, reading those publications, on top of making a living and or raising kids.

  I often wondered how Neanderthals fitted into the picture too. I've done a bunch of study on evolution like most of us have, and I'm not convinced natural selection is what causes macro changes. Yes, minor speciation like what we can see with Queensland magpies vs Tasmanian magpies for instance, but not the development of whole new organs and systems. It's hard to get a fossil tetrapod and a fossil lizard and say one species eventually begat this one over millions of years, because if you dig up a grave yard you wouldn't be able to work out who was related to who over a generation without DNA tests, so fossils over millions of years? Yes, there is a clear progression of forms but natural selection as the agent of change is challenged these days by some.

  There is some sort of divine or supernatural force in the universe I believe, and perhaps all these religious canons are humanity's attempts to capture that. Maybe Jesus really was divine but humans in their fallible way could only write from their limited perspective when writing the gospels.

  As for the Neanderthals, perhaps they don't fit in because there is no in, just some stuff that was developed by some entity for the hell of it. I wouldn't have a clue. Perhaps they were the perfect ones...they seemed pretty peaceful.
• 

  Terry

  Only reasonable people are persuaded by reasons.

  Factual people respect facts.

  People of faith gravitate toward believing.

  Those who cherish loyalty will simply be loyal.

  No true believer will ever see disconfirmations as anything but a trick and a test.
• 

  Phizzy

  Dear Julia, have you read Dawkin's "The Ancestors Tale" ? Not as readble as some of his stuff, but easy enough to follow the route from the start of life till now.

  Also his more readable "The Greatest Show on Earth" covers much that pertains to your doubts.

  As to Neanderthals, there is no doubt that most of us share some of "their" DNA, but that alone does not put them in the line of ancestry that we have for sure, we and they could share a common ancestor after LUCA. (Last Universal Common Ancestor)

  Much work in this area is still to be done.
• 

  jgnat

  DATA-DOG, if you want a map of your inheritance in the deep past, I recommend the Genographic project. You get a nice certificate with your haplogroup on it, and there are now social networks for people in the same haplogroup, exploring their deep shared past.

  Through your participation, you help fund genetic exploration to isolated groups, to better understand the human family tree.
• 

  Comatose

  Jgnat- that's so cool. I just ordered one. Can't wait to see results. Thank you!
• 

  moshe

  The genographic project uses familytreedna to do the tests- go directly to them, save money and match up with your lost ancestors/cousins in their huge database- it worked for me.

  I found three cousins who are related to me, going back to common ancestors in the 1700's- my branch ended up in illlinois, another in Missouri, another in Utah/idaho and another in West Virginia- all were famers moving to a new place with opportunities for land.- another branch stayed in Kentucky, but it died out without any male heirs around WW2. My branch has been skimpy for 100 years and my son is the last male- with no kids. The Missouri branch has come to a dead end with the last male being in his 70's. The branch in Utah/Idaho will keep growing and growing in size.- why?- they are Mormons.