by goddidit 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I've got an audience with a believing JW. Yes, I know he's not really listening. I see all the usual signs of cognitive dissonance. But I have to try.
So I put forward some pretty blatant quotemines and, well, you know how it goes.
Someone please give me something undeniable that I can show him. There must be something.
show him this same point i have made many times here, jesus said you must be born again to enter into the kingdom(john 3:1-7) and jesus showed entering the kingdom and salvation are one and the same(luke 18:18-26) there is a lot more stuff
Start with the fact that they can't be the 'truth'. Jesus words are there in their own bibles. HE is the TRUTH.
Loz x
If he beleives their are ,
old truths.....old light
past truths.....past light
new truths....new light
Then your flogging a dead horse
If he cant understand that truth never changes , that doctrines that are modified , understandings that are adjusted , or previously held beleifs/scriptures are now interpreted differently , then that can only mean one thing .
They were not true in the first place .
So the millions of tracts ,watchtowers ,awakes, bible literature that have been placed by jehovahs witnesses these past 130 plus years have been untruths ,falsehoods,errors , and at worse lies .
Jehovahs Witnesses claim to be just that ,witnesses for Jehovah if any of the above criteria fits them ,then the scripture , which they claim to beleive fits them. Deut.18:20-22
smiddy
Ask him if he believes in "New Scrolls".
In 1985 a new phrase was added to our vocabulary, "New Scrolls", complete with an explanation as to how they will benefit those who inhabit the New World.
The following five references are the only quotations of this new 'teaching', but incredibly, these two words have been indelibly stamped on most people's minds by repetition from platform speakers, and in general conversation.
w85 6/15 p. 18 par. 21 "During this thousand-year judgment period, Jehovah evidently will give additional instructions, unknown to us at present, as new "scrolls" are opened. (Rev. 20:12) How marvelous it will be for the survivors of the "great tribulation" and for the resurrected dead to gain instruction and guidance from these further instructions as set forth on these unrolled "scrolls" of Jehovah and to carry them out delightfully!"
w10 4/15 p. 11 par. 17 "How will Jehovah use his holy spirit in the coming new world? That spirit will be the force behind the new scrolls that will be opened at that time. (Rev. 20:12) What will these contain? Evidently, Jehovah’s detailed requirements for us during the thousand years."
kl chap. 19 p. 185 par. 13 "There will be an extensive educational program under the direction of the King Jesus Christ and his 144,000 co rulers. New "scrolls" will then come into use. Evidently these are God’s written instructions that will serve as a basis for educating earth’s inhabitants." (Revelation 20:12)
re chap. 41 pp. 299-300 par. 15 "But during the resurrection, countless millions of studies, based on the Bible and the new scrolls, will no doubt be conducted! All of God’s people will need to become teachers and to exert themselves. Resurrected ones, as they progress, will no doubt share in this vast teaching program."
es12 p. 67 June "How will Jehovah use his holy spirit in the coming new world? That spirit will be the force behind the new scrolls that will be opened at that time. (Rev. 20:12) What will these contain? Evidently, Jehovah’s detailed requirements for us during the thousand years. Do you look forward to examining the contents of those scrolls?"
What is the truth about these "New Scrolls"?
Jesus said, "Your Word is truth". So we can rely on God's Word to tell us the truth about them. This is what Revelation 20:12 really says; "and scrolls were opened......."And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds."
No "new" scrolls are mentioned, therefore this is an interpolation (the insertion of new or spurious matter) and something which the angel who gave the Revelation to the apostle John, warned against - "If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll. (Rev. 22:18)
Blaspheming God's Word even further, another lie is told - that these scrolls will be opened during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Read Revelation 20:1-10. It clearly shows they are opened after Satan is destroyed - after the 1000 year reign!
A comparison of the Scripture and the 'given explanation' reveals a reasoning which bears absolutely no resemblance to anything in Revelation 20.
Without any explanation for doing so, the word "new" has been dropped from the very latest comment on that verse, as well as repeating the myth that dead people won't be judged for their sins*; "The resurrected ones will be judged, not on the basis of what they did before they died, but on what they do when the contents of the "scrolls" mentioned in Revelation 20 are revealed." (WT 1/09/12, p. 16) "Test the inspired expression"
. (1 John 4:1)* Several Scriptures reveal that Jesus is going to judge the living and the dead; Acts 10:42, Acts 17:31, Romans 14:9, 2 Cor. 5:10, 2 Tim. 4:1, 1 Pet. 4:5, Rev. 11:18, & Rev. 20:12. If the dead can't be judged on their past deeds, (according to demonic reasoning) then all of these verses must be lies!!!
w85 6/15 p. 18 par. 21 "During this thousand-year judgment period, Jehovah evidently will give additional instructions, unknown to us at present, as new "scrolls" are opened. (Rev. 20:12) How marvelous it will be for the survivors of the "great tribulation" and for the resurrected dead to gain instruction and guidance from these further instructions as set forth on these unrolled "scrolls" of Jehovah and to carry them out delightfully!"w10 4/15 p. 11 par. 17 "How will Jehovah use his holy spirit in the coming new world? That spirit will be the force behind the new scrolls that will be opened at that time. (Rev. 20:12) What will these contain? Evidently, Jehovah’s detailed requirements for us during the thousand years."
kl chap. 19 p. 185 par. 13 "There will be an extensive educational program under the direction of the King Jesus Christ and his 144,000 co rulers. New "scrolls" will then come into use. Evidently these are God’s written instructions that will serve as a basis for educating earth’s inhabitants." (Revelation 20:12)
re chap. 41 pp. 299-300 par. 15 "But during the resurrection, countless millions of studies, based on the Bible and the new scrolls, will no doubt be conducted! All of God’s people will need to become teachers and to exert themselves. Resurrected ones, as they progress, will no doubt share in this vast teaching program."
es12 p. 67 June "How will Jehovah use his holy spirit in the coming new world? That spirit will be the force behind the new scrolls that will be opened at that time. (Rev. 20:12) What will these contain? Evidently, Jehovah’s detailed requirements for us during the thousand years. Do you look forward to examining the contents of those scrolls?"
What is the truth about these "New Scrolls"?
Jesus said, "Your Word is truth". So we can rely on God's Word to tell us the truth about them. This is what Revelation 20:12 really says; "and scrolls were opened......."And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds."
No "new" scrolls are mentioned, therefore this is an interpolation (the insertion of new or spurious matter) and something which the angel who gave the Revelation to the apostle John, warned against - "If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll." (Rev. 22:18)
Blaspheming God's Word even further, another lie is told - that these scrolls will be opened during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Read Revelation 20:1-10. It clearly shows they are opened after Satan is destroyed - after the 1000 year reign!
A comparison of the Scripture and the 'given explanation' reveals a reasoning which bears absolutely no resemblance to anything in Revelation 20.
Without any explanation for doing so, the word "new" has been dropped from the very latest comment on that verse, as well as repeating the myth that dead people won't be judged for their sins*; "The resurrected ones will be judged, not on the basis of what they did before they died, but on what they do when the contents of the "scrolls" mentioned in Revelation 20 are revealed." (WT 1/09/12, p. 16) "Test the inspired expression". (1 John 4:1)
* SeveralScriptures reveal that Jesus is going to judge the living and the dead; Acts 10:42, Acts 17:31, Romans 14:9, 2 Cor. 5:10, 2 Tim. 4:1, 1 Pet. 4:5, Rev. 11:18, & Rev. 20:12. If the dead can't be judged on their past deeds, (according to demonic reasoning) then all of these verses must be lies!!!
Hey goddidit,
if I was talking to an active JW I would talk to them about the safety of the most vulnerable in their community, their children.
I would recommend they read about the conti case, and others like it.
I would ask why are children's rights more protected in the world? Many professions have mandatory reporting requirements. Not JW.
Maybe now, they are more careful, an active JW will probably try & brush it all away & say, it's in the past, that couldn't happen now.......... but, we are not talking about the dark ages here. We are talking about the 80/90/00s when these cases were occurring @ routinely being hushed up.
Why did elders hear first hand from children/families about sexual abuse and not immediately refer this to the police? How could they live with themselves after doing this?
this is mind boggling. What makes a body of elders believe that they have that right? There's nothing scriptural in this. This is meant to be a spirit directed organisation.
Does this show love, or the action of holy spirit? To leave an abuser in a congregation, or perhaps just remove their privileges? Does the 2 witness rule quoted in their defence remind you of the attitude of the scribes & Pharisees that Jesus spoke out against?
What motivates these actions? By covering up child abuse in order to protect the reputation of the JW religion they have shown themselves exactly the same as the Catholic Church, the Salvation Army & every other institution which has had to be forced to confront their failings in this area.
The thing is, JWs believe they are better than the rest of the world, and they are not. Their own actions prove it.
This is undeniable, plenty of verifiable information on line.
good luck!
Hey goddidit,
its me again, but I thought of another question.
It's a small point, but it's always bugged me. When I was a student I remember in contract law learning about certain types of contracts which you had to not only refrain from dishonesty, but also be actively honest.
Years ago now, but this phrase struck in my brain. Children are not allowed to sign contracts, their are age limits on marriage. The JW org takes pride in not baptising babies. However children are routinely baptised, before they are able to cognitively grasp what it means!
No 10/12/14 year old can understand the consequences of baptism. Same as I couldn't sign a legally binding contract at 12.
Active honesty on the part of JW would mean not letting children get baptised until they are adults.
Active honesty would mean explainng the negative possible outcomes of baptism & allowing an adult to decide, not a child.
thats an undeniable fact!
Why talk to the cultist? Much more interesting to talk to the natural person within. What is it about this person that makes him/her unique?
Good luck with any conversations, you wake up when you wake up. Most JWs have so much of themselves invested in the religion it is difficult to wake up but- give the Wt. writing department credit for turning thousands of JWs off to the religion, they are the best at getting members to leave. This new FDS fiasco will cause thousands to leave.
May 22, 1969 Awake magazine:
“If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things…Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers.”
Who told that lie?
Did Jehovah direct the WTS/F&DS/GB to mislead "the faithful"? When else in history did Jehovah lie to His people?
Or, was Jehovah NOT really directing them?
jwfacts.com has a list of dozen/hundreds of such quotes (lies) -- but you need to have an "innocent source" for these questions such as a concerned friend, or return visit, or workmate. A Bible Study that I conducted is who initially planted the seeds for me. I thought he was sincerely interested in being a JW at that time. Now I think he was just "counting time" too. Bottom line is you CANNOT go to the JW with what they think is from an "apostate" source.
Doc
