Was Judas present when the Emblems were passed? Who should partake?

by DATA-DOG 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  DATA-DOG

  WT 1/15/51 " The Lord's evening meal."

  8 Mark's account agrees with Matthew's above. Thus we have two writers as witnesses. The apostle John was at that first Memorial and he tells us more details about the identifying of the betrayer after Jesus said: "Truly I say to you, One of you will betray me." So John 13:22-30 adds: "The disciples began to look at one another, being at a loss as to which one he meant. There was reclining in front of Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, and Jesus loved him. Therefore Simon Peter nodded to this one and said to him: 'Tell who it is about whom he is speaking.' So the latter leaned back upon the breast of Jesus and said to him: 'Master, who is it?' Therefore Jesus answered: 'It is that one to whom I shall give the morsel that I dip.' And so, having dipped the morsel, he took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. And after the morsel then Satan entered into the latter. Jesus, therefore, said to him: 'What you are doing get done more quickly.' However, none of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose he said this to him. Some, in fact, were imagining, since Judas was holding the money-box, that Jesus was telling him: 'Buy what things we need for the feast,' or that he should give something to the poor. Therefore, after he received the morsel, he went out immediately. And it was night."-NW

  .9 Thus by the agreement of these three witnesses we have it settled that Judas left the gathering before Jesus introduced the Memorial to the other apostles, the faithful eleven. The bread Jesus served at this Memorial was not dipped in the passover sauce before he gave it to them. Neither after setting up the Memorial did Jesus return to eating the passover and dipping morsels of bread. So Jesus served Judas with the sop and dismissed him before the new Memorial. Judas celebrated merely the passover with Jesus and his faithful apostles, just as the temple priests and captains did to whom Judas had bargained to betray Jesus. Judas was not debarred from the passover any more than they were; only all of them celebrated that passover with condemnation to themselves. Jesus let Judas be there for the passover with him that thus prophecy might have its full climax; as Jesus said: "But the result is that the scripture is fulfilled, 'He that used to feed on my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'" (John 13:18, NW) It follows that Jesus established the Memorial with the eleven loyal apostles, and by this he indicated who were to celebrate it henceforth.

  10 No, those eleven men had not yet been begotten and anointed by God's spirit, "for as yet there was no spirit, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:39, NW) The spirit first came on the day of Pentecost ten days after Jesus had ascended to heavenly glory at his Father's right hand. But Jesus had said to those apostles: "In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt. 19:28, NW) He had also called them members of his little flock, saying: "Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom." (Luke 12:32, NW) To the apostles James and John he had also said: "The cup I am drinking you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am being baptized you will be baptized." (Mark 10:39, NW) And right after setting up the Memorial Jesus confirmed their being in line for the heavenly kingdom, when he said: "You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:28-30, NW) In his closing prayer Jesus prayed to his heavenly Father that they might be with him in his kingdom.-John 17:24.

  11 Thus the fact that the eleven apostles were not yet begotten by the spirit cannot be used as an argument that believers who are not begotten of the spirit may partake of the Memorial emblems. Fifty-one days later the holy spirit was poured out upon the apostles and they were brought forth as spiritual sons of God. After that they did celebrate the Memorial as spiritual sons of God. But those who make up the great crowd of other sheep are not in line for the heavenly kingdom and will never be begotten by God's spirit and be resurrected to spirit life. So they never become the spiritual Israelites to whom the apostle Peter wrote: "Coming to [Christ] as to a living stone, rejected, it is true, by men, but chosen, precious, with God, you yourselves also as living stones are being built up a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. . . . you are 'a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."-1 Pet. 2:4-9, NW.
• 

  prologos

  .9 good argument. any eating would have fulfilled the prophecy.

  11. --- not yet begotten can NOT be used as an argument---? sorry, -- YES WE CAN, because:

  the cup of the NEW Covenant is not for the kingdom but for FORGIVENESS of sin in General. Jer.31 defines the New Covenant as such, as does John 6. further:

  There is no biblical justification to persist talking about the "great crowd of other sheep." as was convincingly shown in other topics:

  The other sheep are the gentile christians,

  The great crowd are christians that have come OUT OF the great tribulation, i.e. that are living before the throne in the post - Armageddon era. will there be memorials then? Will Abraham have to partake to get everlasting life? Will Christ arrive one more time to make the final entries into the book of life AFTER THE FINAL TEST?
• 

  kurtbethel

  So what's the deal?

  Who wants to be in the Judas class of non partakers?
• 

  Bobcat

  DATA:

  (Matthew 26:27, 28) . . .Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: "Drink out of it, all of YOU; 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. . .

  (Mark 14:23, 24) . . .And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, and they all drank out of it. 24 And he said to them: "This means my ‘blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many.

  Contrast the difference between the Memorial and what Jesus later says about ruling:

  For the cup:

  'Drink out of it all of you'

  'This means the new covenant'

  'Which is poured out for many'

  'For forgiveness of sins'

  For ruling with him:

  'You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials

  Thus, qualification is not 'anointing,' but 'sticking with Jesus in his trials.'

  ''I make an agreement/covenant with you'

  (Thus, different from new covenant)

  Even if Judas was dismissed before the Memorial, Luke's order makes sense. Judas had to be gone before Jesus says, "You are the one's that have stuck with me . . ." Otherwise you have a hole in the story, where Jesus knows Judas will betray him but still says that he 'stuck with him.' But it did not bother Luke to have the 'Judas issue' after the Memorial. For Luke, there was no issue with whether Judas was at the Memorial.

  The Memorial is a symbolic gesture, like baptism. Important in itself, but it does not replace right conduct. So if Judas partook of the Memorial, his later betrayal only condemned him further. His baptism would also have the same effect.

  Looking at it from the WT view: If one has to 'stick with Jesus in his trials in order to prove wothy of partaking, then there should be some instructions concerning what constitutes proof of 'sticking with him' before one qualifies for partaking. In other words, you wouldn't just be baptised and anointed an then partake. There would have to be some sort of qualification period to prove onself.

  The Luke account and order of events actually helps place the Memorial issue and the ruling issue in their proper perspective.

  The WT article above, in effect, says: 'We got 3 against 1. So we win.' So much for the whole Bible being inspired. Also, you could take the WT reasoning and make a case for only the 11 faithful apostles who should partake.

  The WT also makes the unsupported assertion that only the 144,000 are 'anointed.' In Gal chap. 3, Paul argues that the one's who receive the 'promised spirit' are the one's who put faith in Jesus and become Abraham's seed and part of the new covenant. The great crowd, as described in Rev 7, qualify on all accounts: They are said to be 'numberless' - a clear allusion to the promises made to Abraham about his seed. And they 'wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb.' (See here for research I posted on the GC - my post # 619 & 622)

  Incidentally, the Didache, thought by some to be a late first or early second century Christian teaching document (thus, called the "Didache" from the Greek for teaching; See Strong's # 1321 & 1322) placed baptism, not 'sticking with Jesus in his trials,' as the only qualification for partaking. (See here at 9:5.)

  Here's Luke's ordering:

  (Luke 22:20-30) . . .Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

  21 "But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table. 22 Because the Son of man is going his way according to what is marked out; all the same, woe to that man through whom he is betrayed!" 23 So they started to discuss among themselves the question of which of them would really be the one that was about to do this.

  28 "However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

  DATA, I suspect you put the article above to invite reasoning on it. So my response is from that perspective and for any interested, especially lurkers.

  Take Care
• 

  Crazyguy

  The Luke account says he was there, also 1 john 5:1 says everone that believes in christ is born of god, children of god so all are to partake!!!!!
• 

  Bobcat

  DATA, something else I wanted to add:

  Presumably, Matthew and Luke had a "pool" of sorts, of Jesus' teachings and sayings and events from which to construct their respective gospel accounts. In a number of areas Matthew and Luke report similar items or sayings, but they are sometimes brought out in different settings. Indeed, Jesus repeated the same teachings on more than one occasion.

  Thus, Luke has Jesus saying at the last supper:

  (Luke 22:28-30 NWT) . . .However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

  The exact setting of these words in Luke is after the Memorial is instituted (22:19, 20) and after Judas is IDed as the betrayer (22:21-23).

  This same 'saying' of Jesus occurs in Matthew in the setting of the rich ruler who asks about gaining life. Matthew reports it this way:

  (Matthew 19:27-29 NWT) . . .Then Peter said to him in reply: "Look! We have left all things and followed you; what actually will there be for us?" 28 Jesus said to them: "Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more and will inherit everlasting life.

  The only real difference in the wording is that in Luke it includes the thought of Jesus making an agreement or "covenant" with the apostles concerning 'sitting on thrones and judging.'

  But what I'm pointing out is that Matthew saw no need to include this saying in the Memorial setting. Matthew did not see ruling with Christ as a significant part of the Memorial celebration. In this he harmonizes with Luke who seperates the Memorial from the 'ruling' saying with the insertion of Judas' betrayal in between.

  This contrasts completely with the WT viewpoint which sees the 'ruling' issue as paramount to partaking at the Memorial. 'If you are not a prospective ruler, you don't partake.'

  But this also highlights the shallowness and cherry-picking nature of the WT view. When Luke mentions 'ruling' in the same setting, the WT uses that. But Luke's positioning of Judas' betrayal is unfortunate. So they try to prove that as being incorrect or inconclusive.

  With Matthew, they make the positioning of Judas' betrayal before the Memorial significant. But they leave out the fact that to Matthew, the 'ruling' issue is not important with regard to the Memorial.

  Take Care
• 

  wha happened?

  He was there invisibly
• 

  out4good3

  Who would've known that you can use the word invisible in so many contexts......
• 

  Crazyguy

  If you look at Luke 22;28-30 this discussion with the apostles about a kingdom for them was at a different time and after the discussion about the New Covenant. Also this discussion for a kingdom is also discussed in Matthew 19;27-30 and Luke 12;32 showing it was discussed at even an earlier time altogether before the New Covenant meal. The Greek words [diatithemai, dietheto] used in the verse Luke 28;29 do not mean covenant, but the more accurate words in English is appoint or promise and this is what other bible translations use. So this later discussion is not about the New Covenant at all as it would seem, its a promise made by Jesus and does not need to be mediated.
• 

  DATA-DOG

  Yes Bobcat, I did post it for discussion, and for lurkers. I just stumbled across it while searching for something else. I thought, " I need to post this before I forget it." Who knows, someone may read it years from now and it may give them the confidence they need to partake.

  Peace,

  DD