Why WLCs lottery counter-example for "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is flawed

by bohm 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • bohm
    bohm

    I recently began reading Strobels "the case for faith" and in chapter two WLC repeat his refutation that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". His argument is as follows:

    This standard would prevent you from believing in all sorts of events that we do rationally embrace. For example, you would not believe the report on the evening news that the numbers chosen in last night's lottery were 4, 2, 9, 7, 8 and 3, because that would be an event of extraordinary improbability. The odds against that are millions and millions to one, and therefore you should not believe it when the news reports it (p. 65).

    Most refutations I have seen in debates and elsewhere are not very clear. Paul Dolan, on Internet infidels (when discussing the book) argue: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_doland/strobel.html#obj2

    Does Craig honestly believe that the results of a lottery are equivalent to the Resurrection? Even if any specific set of numbers is improbable, we know that some such set will be picked in a lottery. For resurrection to be analogous, being raised from the dead would have to be known to happen, even if very rarely; then it might be reasonable to suggest that Jesus is one of these rare resurrected persons, even with only a modest amount of evidence. But since it is clearly not known that some people are raised from the dead, Craig's analogy fails.

    The problem is that while i think the argument touch some of the problematic areas in WLC argument, it dosnt really explain why WLC is wrong. For instance, suppose we just invented lottery and played it for the first time; in that case we wouldnt "know" people won all the time and WLCs argument could be reframed to use that example. Would that not circumvent this argument?

    The second argument is more confused:

    Using Craig's logic, if I were to say either that "I walked to the store" or "I flapped my arms and flew to the store," it would be unreasonable to demand more evidence for the latter than for the former! Frankly, I'd expect a little better understanding of logic from somebody with Craig's credentials. It appears that the discussion of "extraordinary events" and "extraordinary evidence" is placed here so that the rest of the chapter can appeal to merely "ordinary" evidence. And while Strobel apparently argues that he doesn't needstrong evidence because he doesn't want to have to provide it, I doubt he would accept merely ordinary evidence for the miraculous claims of any other religion.

    The problems with these argument is that the author is simply claiming that miracles must be rarer than walking into a store and therefore WLC must be wrong. Thats certainly true, but its not a refutation of WLCs argument. The final argument is even worse:

    According to the concept of "initial probability," the amount of evidence that one would need in order to reasonably believe a proposition is inversely proportional to its probability given our overall background knowledge. The initial probability of someone walking to the store is high, as it happens all the time; therefore, the amount of evidence required in order to reasonably believe the proposition is low. But the initial probability of someone flapping their arms and flying to the store, or of someone rising from the dead, is very low, and therefore the amount of evidence required to affirm such propositions is very high. Nevertheless, Craig tries to bypass the problem of the Resurrection having a low initial probability:

    ...which is saying nothing beyond reframing the original claim "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" as a demonstrating the claim itself is true; the argument is entirely circular.

    I think this is unfortunate because WLCs argument can be shown to be in error very easily by just using WLCs example.

    Lets assume that winning in the lottery and someone (Jesus) raising from the death are equally extraordinary, ei. impropable, to begin with. WLC ask what evidence should convince us either of these things has happened; in the case of the lottery, the evidence we have is (for instance) what is being shown to us in the TV. Lets suppose the probability the announcer will get the sequence right is only 9/10 -- in other words, in one of 10 cases the TV will report a sequence different from what was actually drawn. Lets suppose that in the case the announcer get the sequence wrong, the announcer will mention another sequence different from the true winning sequence (what else should he say?).

    The question WLC pose is now: Given the announcer mention the sequence S, what is the probability the sequence that was actually drawn was S?

    But this can very easily be computed! To my surprice, it come out as 9/10 = 90% -- exactly the chance the announcer get the answer correct. So even very modest amount of evidence, in this case an announcer who make many errors each year, will provide sufficient evidence to make us highly suspect the true sequence is what he claim it is.

    What about Jesus? The evidence we now have are the gospels. We are going to be generous to WLC and assume that if jesus rose from the dead, we would get exactly the gospels we have with their many contradictions, etc. In other words, if jesus rose from the dead, the bible would look the way it look today with chance 1. This is equivalent to assuming the announcer gets the lottery sequence correct every time.

    But we also need some other input, namely that if jesus didnt rise from the dead, how likely is it we would have the evidence we have today? This is a slightly subjective judgement, but i think its fair to assume based on (1) not requiring breaking known laws of nature (2) reports of people rising from the death in other cultures (3) humans are known to make errors that there is some chance that even if jesus didnt rise from the dead, we would still end up with books like the gospels. For the sake of argument:

    • (degree-of-extraordinary) The chance jesus rose from the death without any evidence is 1 : 1'000'000 (about the same as winning in the lottery)
    • The chance the gospels would be the way they are if jesus rose from the death is 1 : 1 (perfect announcer)
    • The chance the gospels would be the way they are if jesus didnt rise from the death is 1 : 1000 (false positives)

    In this case it is easy to work out the chance jesus rose from the death given the evidence is slightly less than 0.1% - compared to 90% before.

    Conclusion:

    When scientists say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence they are proposing a general rule of thumb. In a real setting one would ofcourse try to quantify what is meant by extraordinary (or sufficient) evidence, and this is determined by the actual conditions.

    When WLC attempt to equate the lottery to jesus rising, he is doing no more than using their superficial resemblance to argue they are the same, while any actual treatment quickly reveal they are simply different situations. An example i dont think is unfair is to say water ice does not melt at 0C because carbon dioxide ice (which presumable look roughly similar to water ice) does not melt at 0C.

    WLC can't possibly argue as a philosopher that one shouldnt work through ones thought-examples. Another thing he cant suggest is that we shouldnt compute probabilities the way i have attempted, as he did exactly this in his debate with Bart Ehrman on the resurection of Christ. What could save WLC was to show i have made unfair assumptions, but i have a hard time seing what they could be.

    I suppose my question is if WLC know his argument is flawed and still use it, or he just havent worked it through, or something else.

    Another thing i was surpriced about was how clearly wrong the lottery example is. I was surpriced the numbers came out the way they do, 90% to < 0.1%, even though the two situations seem to make the same type of assumptions; it also quite clearly show that arguing the bible is consistent with jesus rising from the death (something most appolegists consider a victory in itself) is a far cry from getting them anywhere near demonstrating jesus rose from the dead. I also think internet infidels treatment leave a lot to be desired; a smart christian can clearly see two of the arguments used are bad and the first dont really refute WLC.

  • Max Divergent
    Max Divergent
    you would not believe the report on the evening news that the numbers chosen in last night's lottery were 4, 2, 9, 7, 8 and 3, because that would be an event of extraordinary improbability

    Rubbish. This dude is a liar. This is one of the most basic, stupid, dishonest uses of stats going. But typical for someone trying to argue for god, if that's what this author is doing.

    The probability of six numbers being drawn in a scheduled, properly organized lottery is 0.5 - the numbers will be drawn, or they won't be. The likelihood of such a draw resulting in six numbers being correclty reported on the news is much higher - 0.9 according to a pessimistic bohm. So there should be no difficulty in accepting that 4, 2, 9, 7, 8 and 3 were drawn if they are within the range of the numbers used in the lottery: they are as likely as any other set of six numbers from the barrel in a fair lottery.

    If the odds of a single guess selecting in advance the numbers drawn is 1:1,000,000 that has no baring whatever on whether we can accept that a set of numbers was drawn and that they happened to be 4, 2, 9, 7, 8 and 3. There is no 'extraordinary improbability' that six numbers will be drawn and that they might be the six announced on the news the next night.

    In the absence of an 'extraordinary claim', there is no call for extraordinary evidence.

    As to this idea of the Jesus resurrection happening, there is neither a statistical argument to make nor is there an analogy to anything available. It either happened or it didn't, and the likelihood on all the available evidence is that the resurrection didn't happen. But maybe it did. Either way, Carl Sagan's good sense rule of thumb 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' stands.

    I remember reading an article saying some Christian wrote (and I went to one of their bookstores to see the book for myself and it was true) that the failure rate for condoms was somthing extraordinary - 60% or somthing like that. But the success rate for abstinance was said to be 100%. How could such silly numbers be gotten to? Well, if you took a survey of pregnant teens and asked 'did you consider or try to use a condom?' and the answer was yes, then 60% (or whatever the number was) might be arrived at. But then you should ask 'did you consider or try to use abstinance?', and a number will be arrived at to be compared with the 60%. But they've just taken some notion that abstinance works 100% and compared it to some other data arrived at in a different way to get an answer to push to gullible people. Just another dishonest use of stats.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Max Divergent:

    Just to play the devils advocate

    If the odds of a single guess selecting in advance the numbers drawn is 1:1,000,000 that has no baring whatever on whether we can accept that a set of numbers was drawn and that they happened to be 4, 2, 9, 7, 8 and 3.

    WLC would properly say: "if the odds of guessing in advance that jesus would be raised from the dead was 1:1'000'000 or even lower, that has no baring whatever on whether we can accept that he actually did, given the information we now have, because you can accept something like that in the case of the lottery!". At some point we need to argue why the two situations are different.

    There is no 'extraordinary improbability' that six numbers will be drawn and that they might be the six announced on the news the next night. In the absence of an 'extraordinary claim', there is no call for extraordinary evidence.

    An event that was one in a million is not extraordinary? In many journals, a chance of 1:20 (p=0.05) is considered sufficiently extraordinary to warrent publication.

    As to this idea of the Jesus resurrection happening, there is neither a statistical argument to make nor is there an analogy to anything available. It either happened or it didn't, and the likelihood on all the available evidence is that the resurrection didn't happen.

    But thats what need to be argued.

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    What is ordinary is what's usual to society. What's extraordinary is what stretches beyond what's considered usual. This highly depends on time and culture. If thousands of years ago someone suggested that the reason why sheep wool sometimes sparked was because of an inanimate invisible energy force, they could be run out of town. The population might have a longstanding explanation for the phenomenon that was totally wrong. Then when someone comes along with a more correct explanation it's taken as extraordinary because it goes beyond what is considered usual. If the idea is stopped in it's tracks like that it may never come to fruition.

    Requiring extrordinary evidence for an extraordinary claim is a strict scientific standard that comes with pros and cons. Just because a wild claim doesn't have supporting extraordinary evidence doesn't mean it isn't true. It could just mean that the phenomenon is extremely complex like quantum mechanics.

    I personally have had extraordinary experiences, but I have found it's useless to relate them to the rationally minded. Soley because of their marriage to the idea that if I cannot reproduce the experience then it remains an extraordinary claim lacking extraordinary evidence and therefore valueless. If I persist in my claim I am eventually deemed one who believes in extraordinary things without extraordinary evidence and effectively discredited. It's basically a prejudice and stereotype.

    To me this is a freedom of speech issue and also freedom of religion. I am not against evidence, I am against the idea that one should never believe in anything without sufficient reproducible evidence. So much scientific and spiritual discovery has come from perseverance of ideas despite opposition which has often been of the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" crowd. We shouldn't let society dictate what is typical and what is not.

    -Sab

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Why do you need extraordinary proof? Proof should be enough. Law has different standards of proof and defines the burden of proof required. Religion is not science or the law. Religion cannot be proved or disproved through a rational process. It seems a waste of time to me. Perhaps I have been away too long. How angels stand on a needle? What if a church mouse grabs the consecrated host and eats it. Is Christ present in any sense?

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    • Richard Feynman used to go up to people all the time and he'd say "You won't believe what happened to me today... you won't believe what happened to me" and people would say "What?" and he'd say "Absolutely nothing". Because we humans believe that everything that happens to us is special and significant. And that — and Carl Sagan wrote beautifully about that in The Demon-Haunted World — that is much of the source of religion. Everything that happens is unusual and I expect that the likelihood that Richard and I ever would've met. If you think about all the variables: the probability that we were in the same place at the same time, ate breakfast the same. Whatever. It's zero. Every event that happens has small probability... but it happens and then when it happens; if it's weird, if you dream one million nights and it's nonsense but one night you dream that your friend is gonna break his leg and the next day he breaks his arm... *sound of revelation* So the real thing that physics tell us about the universe is that it's big, rare event happens all the time — including life — and that doesn't mean it's special.
      • Lawrence Krausse, "A Universe From Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss, AAI 2009 Closing words (01:03:20 - 01:04:30)
  • bohm
    bohm

    Btt

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    my two cents,

    WLC = William Lane Craig

    “…rationally embrace…” There is no conflict between the requirement for extraordinary evidence and the other forms of rationalism that we embrace.

    Extraordinary claim – “No, wait! It’s Superman!”

    Not so extraordinary – call of lottery numbers on Saturday night. The extraordinary evidence that is supplied includes a video feed and a report of the number in the next day’s paper, on the lottery’s website and in their newsletter. We have plenty of witnesses. If my dotty neighbor jumps up and down, “I’ve won!” I might hold my applause until after she verifies the number.

    For instance, suppose we just invented lottery and played it for the first time; in that case we wouldn’t[sic] "know" people won all the time

    The first time lots were taken, the rules were outlined to the participants and they anticipated the result. Someone would end up with the short straw. All the participants are in front of us; we can touch them and see them. The time and place of the event is known.

    By contrast, claims of a future resurrection include an invisible God, at some indeterminate date in the future.

    If I promised to draw lots at some indeterminate date in the future, it is less trustworthy. I am compromising the pact of trust that is required for lots to work.

    If I claimed that my invisible friend will draw lots some indeterminate date in the future, the shrewd investor will put his shekel back in his pocket.
    By the way, I see from the bible that the drawing of lots is a very old practice. Lots are mentioned in Job, Leviticus, Judges, 1 Chronicles and more. So as an aside, for the bible believer, this is no longer an extraordinary claim (smile) (Appeal to Authority)

  • bohm
    bohm

    Jgnat: the problem is not that winning the lottery is a rare event, and a resurrection a super super rare event, but that the argument simply fails even for a lottery where picking any given winner is as rare as a resurrection!

    think about it for a moment, i actually find that pretty surpricing. I wonder if i should send wlc an email and see if he is aware of it?

  • Tiktaalik
    Tiktaalik

    Lotteries: any set of numbers is equally likely to be drawn as any other set of numbers. So the set {1,2,3,4,5,6} has an equal chance of being drawn as the set {39, 27,4,12, 10,17} or any other set you can think of. The odds for drawing any one set of six numbers from a forty number pool are 1:3,838,380. Nothing extraordinary about it.

    You cannot calculate the odds of a resurrection. You cannot calculate how accurate eyewitness testimonies to a resurrection are.

    If you want to believe in the resurrection of dead people, that's fine. Just don't try and prove your claims using maths. It makes you look very silly.

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