The perplexing conundrum 607 b.c.e condensed down to ONE SIMPLE FACT

by Brother of the Hawk 83 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Pterist

  Lars **** The Bible follows Josephus in introducing a 70-year period from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus. This is confirmed by Zechariah 1 and 7 where we find in year 2 of Darius the Mede that the Jews are still in exile 70 years after the fall of Babylon. Zechariah 7 confirms the Jews are still in exile as well in year four of Darius the Mede.****

  I believe you are confusing Darius the Mede with Darius the Great as follows:

  DARIUS THE GREAT (522-486 B.C.)

  Darius made a decree that the work of the temple should be continued without any hindrance (Ezra chapter 6). It was during his reign that the temple was completed (Ezra chapter 6).

  Note: Don’t confuse this king with Darius the Mede who is mentioned in the book of Daniel (see Daniel 5:31; 6:1). Darius the Mede was the governor of Babylon under Cyrus the Great.

  See list of Persian Kings below .....

  THE KINGS OF PERSIA

  As you read the books of Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther, you will come across the names of different kings. These men were Persian kings. When you read the names of these kings you can look on this list which will help you to understand who the king was and when he lived.

  1. CYRUS THE GREAT (550-530 B.C.)

  This is the king that Isaiah had long ago promised would come and deliver the children of Israel (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1-5). He conquered the Babylonians and then allowed the Jews to return to their homeland and to rebuild their temple (Ezra chapter 1). Daniel was still alive when Cyrus was king (Daniel 1:21; 10:1).

  2. CAMBYSES (530-522 B.C.)

  3. SMERDIS (He ruled less than a year.)

  4. DARIUS THE GREAT (522-486 B.C.)

  Darius made a decree that the work of the temple should be continued without any hindrance (Ezra chapter 6). It was during his reign that the temple was completed (Ezra chapter 6).

  Note: Don’t confuse this king with Darius the Mede who is mentioned in the book of Daniel (see Daniel 5:31; 6:1). Darius the Mede was the governor of Babylon under Cyrus the Great.

  5. AHASUERUS or XERXES (486-464 B.C.)

  This is the king that we read about in the book of Esther. Esther became his queen. He is also mentioned in Ezra 4:6.

  6. ARTAXERXES I (464-423 B.C.)

  At first this king sent a decree ordering the Jews to stop rebuilding the city and the walls (see Ezra 4:6-23). Later, however, he allowed his cupbearer, Nehemiah, to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the city walls (Nehemiah chapters 1-2). This is also the same king who had earlier allowed Ezra to return (Ezra chapters 7-8).

  These were all great kings, but as we read the books of Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther, we learn that there is a much greater King in heaven who is in control of all things!
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  Larsinger58

  PTERIST: I believe you are confusing Darius the Mede with Darius the Great as follows:

  No, I am not. You have to FOCUS on the specific history being discussed. Per Josephus there are 70 years from the last deportation, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II. That means the Jews would not be released in the 1st of Cyrus until some 74 years after the fall of Jerusalem in year 19.

  So when we read that the 70th year since the fall of Jerusalem is dated to year 2 of "Darius", we know that the Jews must still be in exile, with 4 more years to go. The context also shows the Jews are still in exile. So this just means that Darius the Mede began his rule 2 years earlier. But from history we learn that Darius the Mede was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II! As well, Nabonidus, the true king of Babylon, was still at large. So technically, the Neo-Babylonian kingship continued through Darius the Mede for six years after Belshazzar was killed.

  It wasn't until Darius the Mede abdicated to Cyrus that the "royalty of Persia" began to reign at Babylon and the true end of the Neo-Babylonian Empire occurred.

  So if you dismiss Josephus, then you can claim the "Darius" at Zechariah 1 and 7 is any Darius you wish, but if the Jews were still in exile 70 years after the fall of Babylon, this could only be a reference to Darius the Mede, who was a Babylonian king. Keep in mind, he only replaced Belshazzar, his cousin as the #2 ruler in Babylon, and without a fight. So that explains why there was so much acceptance of Darius the Mede when he began to rule, it is because he was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II and a legitimate heir to the throne, plus Nabonidus was still the official ruler. Only when Cyrus took over was Nabonidus put under house arrest and the Neo-Babylonian line of kings ended.

  On other words, Darius the Mede conquered Babylon six years before Cyrus began to rule. Only when Cyrus began to rule were the Jews released along with many others to begin to rebuild the empire. While Darius the Mede was ruling, Daniel and all the Jews remained in exile and Jerusalem was still a desolate waste.

  So I am not confused. You have to pay more attention to the details. Per the Bible and Josephus, if the 70 years is linked with those of the last deportation, year 23, then the Jews would have still been in exile up to 74 years after the fall of Jerusalem, which is confirmed by Zechariah 1 and 7.

  This is one reason why COJ and his propaganda to promote the secular chronology is just a joke for anyone who knows the Bible's chronology, or even the chronology of Josephus.
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  Larsinger58

  THE CORRECTED KINGS OF PERSIA

  As you read the books of Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther, you will come across the names of different kings. These men were Persian kings. When you read the names of these kings you can look on this list which will help you to understand who the king was and when he lived.

  1. CYRUS THE GREAT (550-530 B.C.) (455-446 B.C. - 9 YEARS)

  This is the king that Isaiah had long ago promised would come and deliver the children of Israel (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1-5). He conquered the Babylonians and then allowed the Jews to return to their homeland and to rebuild their temple (Ezra chapter 1). Daniel was still alive when Cyrus was king (Daniel 1:21; 10:1).

  2. CAMBYSES (530-522 B.C.) (446-439 B.C. - 7 YEARS NOT 8 YEARS)

  3. SMERDIS (He ruled less than a year.)

  4. DARIUS THE GREAT (522-486 B.C.) (439-433 B.C. - HE RULED JUST 6 YEARS NOT 36-- EZRA 6:14,15)

  Darius made a decree that the work of the temple should be continued without any hindrance (Ezra chapter 6). It was during his reign that the temple was completed (Ezra chapter 6).

  Note: Don’t confuse this king with Darius the Mede who is mentioned in the book of Daniel (see Daniel 5:31; 6:1). Darius the Mede was the governor of Babylon under Cyrus the Great. (Darius the Mede was, indeed, "governor" under Cyrus for 8 years, but only after his 6-year sole rule over Babylon after Babylon was conquered and during which time the #1 official king of Babylon, Nabonidus, was still at-large. Darius the Mede was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II via a state marriage with the daughter of Nebuchadnezzar II and the king of Media, Cyaxares, who is called "Ahasuerus" in the Bible. So Darius the Mede first rule for a full six years over Babylon, then abdicated to Cyrus who became king over all of Persia and all the "kings" of the various nations became "governors." Even so, Darius the Mede continued to rule at Babylon for 8 years when he died. Then Cambyses ruled at Babylon as co-ruler with his father, Cyrus, for 1 year, after which Cyrus died after 9 years of rule.)

  5. AHASUERUS or XERXES (486-464 B.C.) (Xerxes who was Artaxerxes, rule for 41 years from 437-396 BCE, including a 4-year co-rulership with his father, Darius I, a point emphasized by the WTS, who incorrectly presumes a 10-year co-rulership.)

  This is the king that we read about in the book of Esther. Esther became his queen. He is also mentioned in Ezra 4:6. (Xerxes is the same king as "Artaxerxes I" and thus the Book of Esther is not inspired. Further, only the Hebrew version of Esther has her married to "Xerxes." The earlier LXX version has her married to "Artaxerxes." Thus the Jews have always known that Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king.)

  6. ARTAXERXES I (464-423 B.C.) (Same as Xerxes, 41 years of rule from 437-396 BCE)
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  Amelia Ashton

  Brother of the Hawk

  I know and accept the society is wrong and I wanted you to be right in that it was a simple and irrefutable way to prove it. I was highlighting the Insight's faulty explanation and that a still in dub would blindly accept it . x
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  AnnOMaly

  The above scan is from the Interpreter's Bible Dictionary pg 203 It's difficult to see but it say's "In the year 593 somewhere in Mesopotamia, during a thunderstorm, Ezekiel saw his wounderous vision of God and received the call to be a prophet to Israel." If Jerusalem was already destroyed in 607, than whats the point of getting Ezekiel to prophesy? The city is already Destroyed!!!!! It serves no point to give warnings to a people already dead and exiled!!!!!!!

  Hawk, I'm sorry to rain on your parade again.

  The argument doesn't work. You're meshing together two chronologies, comparing one date from one chronology with a date from another chronology as if one affects the validity of the other.

  It's like comparing weights from two sets of scales. One set of scales shows 1lb 4oz and the other shows 1lb exactly. Both scales have the same amount of sugar on them - 1lb. You can't then argue that the 1lb measure of sugar shows that the 1lb 4oz measure from the other scales is wrong if the scales are calibrated differently, i.e. where one set of scales takes into account that the sugar sits in a 4oz bowl, whereas the other scales don't. See what I'm saying?

  The Interpreter's Bible Dictionary shows that Ezekiel was called to be a prophet 6 or 7 years before Jerusalem was destroyed (does the Dictionary give 587 or 586 BCE?). JWs agree that Ezekiel was called to be a prophet 6 years before Jerusalem was destroyed. Taking the '593' date from the Dictionary, which is calibrated by conventional chronology, to disprove the '607' date calibrated by WT chronology is an invalid approach.

  (Oh, and don't mind Lars. He's our resident 'messiah' who has his own unique chronological system that bears little resemblance to reality.)
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  Pterist

  Lars is the Bible wrong when it says the exile started with king Jechoniah and ended as exiles started to come back with (king) Zerrubabe (his grandson) ? Matthew 1/Ezra2
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  St George of England

  Bookmarked
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  Larsinger58

  ANN: (Oh, and don't mind Lars. He's our resident 'messiah' who has his own unique chronological system that bears little resemblance to reality.)

  Hi Ann. Am I really that threatening? Josephus claims a 70-year period from year 23 of Neb2 to the 1st of Cyrus. That's academic. You and others simply don't want to deal with the potential of revisionism by the pagans for this period. The best you can do is call me crazy, because you certainly have no academic challenge to the chronology here.
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  Larsinger58

  PT: Lars is the Bible wrong when it says the exile started with king Jechoniah and ended as exiles started to come back with (king) Zerrubabe (his grandson) ? Matthew 1/Ezra2

  The 70-year period of exile began with the last deportastion (year 23 of Neb2) and ended in the 1st of Cyrus -- per the Bible.

  Per Josephus, the 70-year exile began with the last deportation and ended the 1st of Cyrus -- same as the Bible.

  Start there.
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  AndDontCallMeShirley

  "Genius is the ability to reduce the complicated to the simple." - C.W. Ceram

  "There is a master key to success with which no man can fail. Its name is simplicity. I mean, in the sense of reducing to the simplest possible terms every problem that besets us. Whenever I have met a business proposition which, after taking thought, I could not reduce to simplicity, I have left it alone." - Sir Henry Deterding

  -----

  I always have a good laugh over these discussions. Debates over historical gaps, Neo-Babylonian business records, lunar eclipses, etc.

  What is the root end-goal of these debates? In JW Land, it's to "prove" that Russell and the WT were 'chosen by God' to predict the end of the Gentile Times, a period from 607-1914. Whether Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 or 587 does not matter, the simple fact is you cannot draw a straight timeline from that event to 1914 (or any other date)! Additionally, not one thing Russell predicted would occurr in 1914 actually happened. A 100% failure! Hardly the trait of someone who claimed to be God's hand-picked "faithful and discreet slave". Considering that all the significance WT attaches to 1914 was originally attached to the years 1799 and 1874 by Russell, it is a massive, epic fail that was doomed from its inception. Every individual and religious group that has attempted to predict an 'end time' date based on Jerusalem's destruction has failed, over and over again!

  The mental gymnastics and confounding lines of reasoning some resort to to prove this-or-that point nullifies most arguments. If you can't explain it simply then most likely your basis is hopelessy flawed.

  So, for those who argue these dates with the idea you can somehow figure something out that everyone else in history has missed, remember this:

  "But no one knows the date and hour when the end will be-not even the angels. No, nor even God's Son. Only the Father knows." Mt. 24:36, Living Bible

  And, keep in mind these words- 300 years ago Sir Isaac Newton wrote:

  "This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, and by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail."

  Trying to figure it out is a Fool's Errand. The Bible tells you straight-up you will fail!! Why start?

  All secular archaeologists, historians, scholars (people with actual university degrees) say 587 BCE

  Wathtower- not one scholar, historian or archaeologist in the ranks, says 607 BCE. You do the math!

  Move on.