Jesus - Michael or God?

by Dawn 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Dawn
    Dawn

    I've been researching this issue for myself - it's a doctrine I was still having problems understanding - is he or isn't he...

    I came across a couple of interesting scriptures that I had not noticed before so thought I'd share them with ya'll:

    1) Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, "Let us make man in our image..." I was taught as a JW that God was speaking to Jesus (Michael) here. If that's true, and Jesus/Michael is an angel - that would mean that God created angels in his image also (since I refers to "image" as singular - it doesn't say images). Verse 27 is clear that man was made in God's image. So - who was God speaking to in Genesis 1:26??

    2) Colossians 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God.........."

    So Jesus is the image of God, and we were created in the image of God - this means we were created in the image of Jesus also..right??
    Now if Jesus is an angel - that must mean that angels were also created in the image of God.

    I can't find anything in my bible to say "yea" or "nea" on this issue. It seems to me that if I could find something that proved angels were not created in God's image then it's pretty clear Jesus isn't Michael. Any help??

  • Smoldering Wick
    Smoldering Wick

    I thought Michael was Michael :::shrugs shoulder:::

    "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." ~Voltaire

  • pseudoxristos
    pseudoxristos

    Dawn,

    I have been interested in this subject, and have not really been able to find enough evidence to conclusively prove one way or the other that Jesus and Michael are, or are not the same. The following is from some research I have done on the subject. This was actually a post from a previous thread with lots of good points discussed.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=21467&site=3

    The Watchtower points out that Michael is the only Archangel mentioned in the bible; therefore he must be the highest Angel. The parallel of Michael, as the highest angel and Jesus as God's first creation, seems at first to imply that they could be the same. A little background into Jewish thought during the first century will show that this is not necessarily true.
    The Word "Archangel" can be compared to a similar word in the NT, "Chief Priests"
    A Greek Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
    'archiereus' The pl. is used in the NT and in Joseph to denote members of the Sanhedrin who belonged to high priestly families.
    'archaggelos' A member of the higher ranks in the heavenly host PK 2 p. 14,27. Michael (En. 20, 5;8) is one of them Jd 9. He is also prob. the archangel who will appear at the Last Judgment 1 Th 4:16.

    The Chief Priests are mentioned several times in the NT. It is clear that although there was a Chief Priest over the others, there are many references to the others as Chief Priests. Therefore when someone is referred to as a Chief Priest, it does not necessary mean he is Head of the Priests. The word archangel was used in a similar fashion during that period, as can be seen in the book of Daniel and the some of the writings that did not make it into the bible.
    The book 1 Enoch is the best example of this.

    quote:

    I Enoch 20:1
    1. And these are names of the holy angels who watch: 2. Suruel, one of the holy angels-for (he is) of eternity and of trembling. 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, for (he is) of the spirits of man. 4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who take vengeance for the world and for the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, for (he is) obedient in his benovolence over the people and the nations. 6. Saraqael, one of the holy angels who are (set) over the spirits of mankind who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel on of the holy angels who oversee the garden of Eden, and the serpents, and the cherubim.
    Most scholars agree that 1 Enoch was composed between the 2nd Cent. BC - 1st Cent. AD. They also believe that the book of Daniel, received its final editing in the 2nd Cent. BC. Both the book of Daniel and the book of Enoch are apocalyptic works, and share many of the same ideas of that period. In the book of Daniel, Michael is referred to as "one of the foremost princes", not as the foremost prince (Da 10:13). This context is much like 1 Enoch, which lists him as just one of many "holy angels". The other reference in Daniel (Da 12:1), "Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people". Again, very much like Michael in 1 Enoch.
    1 Enoch also heavily influenced the book of Jude. The idea of the angels of the flood being held in eternal bonds (Jude 6) is discussed in 1 Enoch 10 1:22. The reference to "Michael" (Jude 9), and the reference to Enoch's prophesy of the myriads of angels (Jude 14), are clear indications of 1 Enoch's influence.
    quote:

    Jude 14
    Yes, the seventh one [in line] from Adam, Enoch, prophesied also regarding them. When he said: "Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads.

    The Deuterocanonical book of 2 Esdras also refers to the archangel Uriel.
    quote:

    2Esdr 4:36 And unto these things Uriel the archangel gave them answer, and said, Even when the number of seeds is filled in you: for he hath weighed the world in the balance.

    It is clear from the documents of the 1st Century period that Michael was not considered the only “archangel”. He likely became a favorite of the Christian writers because he was, “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people”. I see no evidence of a connection between Michael and Jesus.
    The Watchtower has come to this conclusion for the same reason that Russell believed the pyramid was God's Witness in stone. The Watchtower has continually looked for patterns in the Bible, and drawn false conclusions from them. This explains all of the false prophecies and all the strange doctrines that they now have, and all the weird things to come.
    If you look at any complex subject, such as the bible, eventually you will come up with interesting parallels. Throw in a complex structure like the pyramid and you will get Volume III of Studies in the Scriptures.
    This is just another example of the Watchtower’s narrow-minded point of view, and their attempt to be slightly different than other religions, for the sake of impressing those without some background on the subject.

  • willy_think
    willy_think

    Dawn,

    Not only was the very Jesus/Michael idea unheard of before Russell, but the Bible explicitly rejects the possibility of it.

    For example, the author of Hebrews states: "To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my son? . . . Let all the angels of God worship him. . . . Your throne, O God, stands firm forever. . . . O Lord, you established the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands’ . . . to which of the angels has he ever said ‘Sit at my right hand . . . ’" (Heb. 1). Here, the author of Hebrews separates Jesus from angels, and commands the angels to worship him (Rev. 5:13-14,14:6-7). The obvious problem is this: Archangels are creatures, but the Bible forbids any creature to worship another creature. So, either the Bible is in error by commanding the angels to worship an archangel, or Jesus is uncreated and cannot be an archangel. Since this gave the WT a tremendous problem, they even had to change their Bible translation, to eliminate the references to worshipping Christ. (The 1950, 1961, and 1970 editions of the NWT read "worship" in Hebrews 1:6.) Beyond this, Jesus has the power to forgive sins and give eternal life, but no angel has this capacity.

    2. Jesus: Creature of Creator?

    The doctrine that most clearly sets the WTS apart from Christianity it they maintain that Jesus is actually a creature—a highly exalted one at that—but not God himself. Scripturally, the evidence is not in their favor.

    John 1:1 states unequivocaly, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This verse gave the JWs tremendous difficulty, and so in the NWT they render the end of this verse as, "And the word was a god." One great difficulty with this translation is how it contradicts passages such as Deuteronomy 32:39, which says, "I alone, am God and there are no gods together with me." Further contradictions can be seen in Exodus 20:3, "Have no other gods besides me," and Isaiah 43:10, "Before me no god was formed nor shall there be any after me." When a particular translation so clearly opposes other verses in Scripture, one can know immediately that it is inaccurate.

    In John 20:28 Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." In the original Greek it literally reads, "The Lord of me and the God of me." It would be nothing short of blasphemy for Jesus not to rebuke Thomas if he was wrong. Jesus does nothing of the sort, but instead accepts Thomas’ profession of his identity as God.

    The Bible indicates that God alone created the universe (Is. 44:24), and "he that constructed all things is God" (Heb. 3:4). However, Jesus created the heavens and the earth (Heb. 1:10). This passage by itself proves that Jesus is God, since an Old Testament reference to God (Ps. 102:26-28) is now given to him.

    In John 8:58, Jesus takes the name of God, "I AM" (Ex. 3:15-18), and applies it to himself. Only God may use this title without blaspheming (Ex. 20:7, Deut. 5:11), and the punishment for someone other than God to use the sacred "I AM" is stoning (Lev. 24:16). Thus in verse 59, Jesus’ audience picked up stones to kill him, because they correctly understood his use of "I AM" as his claim to being God and hence thought he was guilty of blasphemy. This verse also proved to be difficult for the WT to combat, and so they changed "I AM" to "I have been." They call this rendering the perfect indefinite sense, but such a tense does not exist in the Greek language. So, the WTS went so far as to invent a new Greek tense in order to change Jesus’ words and consequently rob them of their significance. It should also be noted that it would be rather strange for people to stone Jesus for saying that he "had been."

    The WT maintains that only Jehovah God may be prayed to. But Stephen prayed to Jesus in Acts 7:59, and so one must conclude that Jesus is God. Otherwise, Stephen blasphemed while filled with the Holy Spirit (7:55). Now the WT will assert that Stephen was praying as a result of the vision he originally beheld, where he saw God and Jesus in heaven (verse 55). However, verse 58 says that Stephen was dragged out of the city to be stoned, so clearly the vision had ended, for his stoning took place in a different location and at a later time. It is in the context of this later setting when Stephen clearly prays to Jesus that he might "receive [Stephen’s] spirit."

    The WTS would have their schlemiels believe that Jehovah and Jesus are necessarily different beings, though the Bible tells another story. Jesus is called Mighty God in Isaiah 9:5, and in the very next chapter the same title is given to Jehovah in verse 21.
    Other shared titles include:
    King of Kings (compare with Rev. 17:14)
    Lord of Lords (Deut. 10:17; Rev. 17:14)
    the only Savior (Is. 43:10-11; Acts 4:12)
    the First and the Last (Is. 44:6; Rev. 22:13)
    the Alpha and the Omega (Rev. 1:8; Rev. 22:13-16)
    Rock (Is. 8:14; 1 Pet. 2:7-8)
    Shepherd (Ps. 23:1; Heb. 13:20-21)

    Jesus and Jehovah have much more in common than titles, though. They are both:
    worshipped by angels (Heb. 1:6, Neh. 9:6)
    They are both unchanging (Heb. 13:8, Mal. 3:6)
    They both created the heavens and the earth (Heb. 1:10, Neh. 9:6)
    They are both all-knowing (John 21:17, 1 John 3:20)
    Both give eternal life (John 10:28, 1 John 5:11)
    both judge the world (John 5:22, Ps. 96:13)
    To them every knee will bend and every tongue confess (Phil. 2:9-11, Is. 45:23).

    The Great and Powerful Oz:

    pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Dawn, willy is right, although back in the 4th cent. Arius tried to convince the masses that Jesus was created. He was an extremely pivotal person in the forced development of the trinity doctrine, yet it is not mentioned once in the "Should you believe in the Trinity" booklet. I wonder why? There are good books, 'secular' as well, on this history.

    Councils were convened to discuss the matter one after another, there were excommunications, charges of heresy, on & on, in the end, it was agreed that Jesus was NOT created and the "creed" was written.

    By the way, there has not been any written word found about a cover up, conspiracy, re-writing to change & suit their ideas, etc. Which would have been huge news!!! Not like the WT and you need only read their own lit to see their bumbling evolution. Which is the precise reason why the WT's writings, ideas and doctrines cannot be trusted. Willy think has some great proof texts but still holds onto a few WT ideas. For instance:

    He is also prob. the archangel who will appear at the Last Judgment 1 Th 4:16.
    I have brought this up many times, the WT uses 1Thes 4:16 to show how Jesus must be Michael and at the same time there is an asterisk (*) after the word "Lord" in the scripture and on the CDRom. The footnote says that this Lord is Jehovah.

    Do you see how they are so deceptive & twisted, they can't even keep their lies straight. The WT has convinced many people of half-truths. Some investigate, see the lies, denounce a certain teaching of the WT, yet hold on to others. Some even say out right that there are many things wrong with the society but still feel they have the truth. When Jesus said ...HE was the way, the truth, and the light... do you think He was talking about WT truth[tm], their definition of light, their printing company as the way? I hardly think so.

    Then God said, "Let us make man in our image..."
    Now find the scriptures that God says HE ALONE did all this. If he was alone, who was he talking to? The WT can't stand this Godhead word or idea spoke of later on in scripturs so they make stories about Master Carpenters, architects, helpers etc.

    Using WT analogy would also make Jehovah an angel since they mix up Jesus & Jehovah so many times. See also their history of "who is coming" in Rev. 22:12-13.

    WT theology, supposedly coming right from God, is an insult to God and the bible and to any one who believes in God & the bible. When honestly investigated the WT ends up being a disgusting thing in a holy place (your heart, your temple) So why waste your time on their ideas?

    For those who do not believe in God it is just another multi=level marketing scam that uses fear and manipulation to expand & control. So why waste your time?

    If you are looking for something to believe in that you will be "staking your life on" I'd scrap all WT ideas and start again, brand new, keep your mind open, and read, read, read.

    edited to fix my quote thang, will

  • RR
    RR

    I have no problem with Jesus having been Michael. In fact some of the great commentaries of our times also believe that Jesus is Michael. Seems many who disclaim this don't research it enough.

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    RR
    I'd be interested to know who wrote some of these great commentaries, only cause I haven't run into many since origen & arius' time.

    thanks

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    How are you coming with those names RR?
    I've got a whole afternoon to kill and would love a project.

    thanks again.

  • RR
    RR

    Hey, I have a life .... you know! lol

  • RR
    RR

    These are all quotes on Daniel 12:1

    John Wesley's Explanatory Notes

    For the children - The meaning seems to be, as after the death of Antiochus the Jews had some deliverance, so there will be yet a greater deliverance to the people of God, when Michael your prince, the Messiah shall appear for your salvation. A time of trouble - A the siege of Jerusalem, before the final judgment. The phrase at that time, probably includes all the time of Christ, from his first, to his last coming.
    The 1599 Geneva Study Bible
    12:1 And at that a time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    (a) The angel here notes two things: first that the Church will be in great affliction and trouble at Christ’s coming, and next that God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ, who is proclaimed by the preaching of the Gospel.

    Matthew Henry Commentary
    1-4. Michael signifies, "Who is like God," and his name, with the title of "the great Prince," points out the Divine Saviour. Christ stood for the children of our people in their stead as a sacrifice, bore the curse for them, to bear it from them. He stands for them in pleading for them at the throne of grace. And after the destruction of antichrist, the Lord Jesus shall stand at the latter day upon the earth; and He shall appear for the complete redemption of all his people. When God works deliverance from persecution for them, it is as life from the dead. When his gospel is preached, many who sleep in the dust, both Jews and Gentiles, shall be awakened by it out of their heathenism of Judaism. And in the end the multitude that sleep in the dust shall awake; many shall arise to life, and many to shame. There is glory reserved for all the saints in the future state, for all that are wise, wise for their souls and eternity. Those who turn many to righteousness, who turn sinners from the errors of their ways, and help to save their souls from death, ( James 5:20 ) , will share in the glory of those they have helped to heaven, which will add to their own glory.
    These are just a few, you can reseatrch commentaries online, just do a simple search

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