607 - What is it all about?

by leaving_quietly 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • leaving_quietly
    leaving_quietly

    Some of you here have a firm belief that 607 was NOT the fall of Jerusalem, contrary to the WT beliefs that it was. But, why is it important? Frankly, I just don't get it. I think the Society has made up a prophecy where none exists.

    The basis for 607/1914 is a statement by Jesus at Luke 21:24: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."

    The "appointed times of the nations" is supposedly a major fulfillment of the seven times in Daniel 4 when Nebuchadnezzar became as a beast of the fields for seven years. Here's where it gets weird. The Society thinks this is indicative of some other future fulfillment, thus pointing out seven years constitutes 2,520 days (using a 360 day year as per Rev. 12:6, 14), and then using a "day for a year" formula based on Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6. Then, this is combined with Jesus statement as above.

    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but when Jesus made that statement, it was (let's use WT dates) at least 637 years after Jerusalem was destroyed (607, no zero year, baptized in 29 C.E., so 607 + 30). And, he says "Jerusalem will be trampled on", indicating a future starting point, and a very loose ending point. Yet, the Society claims the starting point was some 637 years previous to his statement.

    First, there is no prophecy in the Bible of 2,520 years. It just does not exist. Or does it? Am I missing something? Or is this just another one of those "ooh, look, a prophecy... must have a TWO fulfillments!!!!" things?

    Second, why use a starting point so far in the past when Jesus clearly spoke in the future tense?

    Can someone explain this to me?

    I have wondered about the 2,520 years for a long time, and I keep seeing the 607/586 issue over and over, and frankly, it's all above my head. However, it was only a little while ago when I sat down to try to understand it that I noticed the future tense in Luke 21:24. So, I'm confused. Admittedly, I have not researched this all that much even in WT publications, except for that I know the numbers... I just don't know why the numbers are there to begin with. I had assumed there was some prophecy concerning the Gentile Times that I was missing, but frankly, I can't find it.

  • 2+2=5
    2+2=5

    It's about some religious nutters back in the 1800's who were trying to attract attention to there teachings by speculating on scriptures and trying to find the date for Christs return. You probably don't understand it because it is all just crazy talk. It is a big obscure hidden bible prophecy that was apparently revealed by god to bible students in the last days.

    Watchtower doctrines like 607 were pretentiously created and devised in order to attract attention from the public in supporting the distribution and proliferation of their literature.

    Sadly for the WTS, the whole prophecy is flawed on so many levels. Jerusalem did not fall in 607, incorrectly applying Jeremiahs 70 yrs, the gentile times, year for a day, the tree image of Daniel 4 applying to gods kingdom and on it goes. . . . . . but never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but when Jesus made that statement, it was (let's use WT dates) at least 637 years after Jerusalem was destroyed (607, no zero year, baptized in 29 C.E., so 607 + 30). And, he says "Jerusalem will be trampled on", indicating a future starting point, and a very loose ending point. Yet, the Society claims the starting point was some 637 years previous to his statement.

    You are quite correct that the 'appointed times of the nations' or 'Gentile times' actually cannot refer to any event prior to the first century CE, regardless of any other intended meaning (though it is more likely they really refer to no actual event). See my article about Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914 for more information.

    They are, of course, wrong about 607. And, they're also wrong about all the other elements of their 1914 drivel. The reason the 607 element is the one about which you'll see most written is that the fall of Jerusalem was an actual historical event, whereas all the other elements are almost entirely subject to interpretation.

  • TD
    TD
    And, he says "Jerusalem will be trampled on", indicating a future starting point, and a very loose ending point.

    Luke 21:24 is a periphrastic use of the future tense and can be understood to mean a continuation of a trampling that started at some indeterminate point in the past. In other words, Jerusalem shall continue to be trampled. Personally, I think the writer only had the Roman occupation in mind, but that's very difficult to argue with a JW.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Good questions.

    First though, the "7 times" prophecy is what is directly linked to 1914 based on 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem. The "day for a year" formula actually forces us to look at double fulfillments; that is, one fulfillment for a literal 24-hour day and one where a day substitutes for a year. Since the NB timeline lasted less than 100 years, it begs a second fulfillment that would extend 2520 years. The interpretation here is that this interval represents the period of time when an earthly representative of God's kingdom would be absent. Thus the fall of Jerusalem is linked with the date of the second coming. I accept this interpretation. But it depends on when you date the fall of Jerusalem. 607/1914 is "absolute chronology", the 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem to the 2nd coming, though, is "relative chronology."

    JWs assign three fulfillments to 1914, but only one applies:

    1. The "end of the gentile times" ended on November 30, 1947 when the Jews officially came out of exile. So that's not 1914. Jerusalem was still under gentile rule in 1914. So that is just a misapplication of Luke's reference to the "appointed times of the nations."

    2. A "generation" during which all these signs would occur is implied beginning with "nation vs. nation and kingdom vs. kingdom" as the first sign, and thus a world war begins this generation. This would be a generation of 80 years from 1914-1994. To be fulfilled, the 2nd coming would have to occur after the State of Israel is re-born, but before 1994.

    3. 607 BCE is not the correct date for the fall of Jerusalem for several reasons:

    a) The 70 years per Josephus begin with the time the people are removed off the land, and thus are dated from the last deportation in year 23. So even if you use the pouplar secular date of 537 BCE for the return from Babylon and add 70 years back to 607 BCE, it would mark year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II and not year 19 or 18. So the "relative chronology" is wrong here.

    b) But also, now the "absolute chronology" is wrong. Based on the "70 weeks" proiphecy, this prophecy must begin in the 1st of Cyrus. JWs understand this prophecy begins in 455 BCE based on 29 CE. But they date year 20 of Artaxerxes to 455 BCE rather than the 1st of Cyrus. If the 1st of Cyrus actually occurred in 455 BCE before revisions in the secular timeline, then the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar II would fall in 525 BCE and the fall of Jerusalem would be dated to 529 BCE. That means the 2nd coming would fall in 1992 rather than 1914! Our concern here is that 1992 is, indeed, still before the end of a generation that began in 1914 that ends in 1994. So that works out. It is not difficult now to confirm that 455 BCE, indeed, is the Biblical date for the 1st of Cyrus. This is "absolute chronology" applied to the fall of Jerusalem.

    c) Finally, the fall of Jerusalem occurs in year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar II and not year 18. The WTS is dating the 18th rather than the 19th year of Neb2 to 607 BCE.

    END OF THE GENTILE TIMES: As noted above, the end of the gentile times or the end of the appointed times of the nations occurs on November 30, 1947 when the UN Partition Agreement went into effect, ending Jewish exile. This also ends the "1290 days" mentioned in Daniel 12. "Happy is the one keeping in expectation of the 1335 days!" 1335 days is 45 days more than the 1290 days. Applying a "day for a year" formula, this means the 2nd coming should have occurred 45 years after 1947, and thus in 1992. But we know that when we date the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE.

    So 607 BCE is incorrect for the fall of Jerusalem, but so is the secular date of 587 BCE. Neither is the fall of Babylon correct for 539 BCE. All these dates are too early because of expansion of the Persian Period. Our best Biblical reference to getting the dates of the NB Period correct is dating the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE, then adding 70 years back to the last deportation, year 23. In that case, again, Jerusalem falls in year 19, 529 BCE. That dates the 2nd coming in 1992, the same date you get when you add 45 years to 1947.

    So as usual, the WTS, now the "evil slave" and "false prophet" only have part of it correct, but the refined understanding belong to the elect.

    WHY IS IT IMPORTANT? The reason why it is important is relative, particularly for JWs since the fall of Jerusalem is linked to the 2nd coming by the "7 times prophecy." But we can date the second coming to 1992 by two other year-specific prophecies. We don't have to unravel all the revised records and complications of ancient history to try to establish the true original date for the reign of Nebuchadnezzar II.

    So it is going to be more significant for the elect and, in particular, JWs since they have developed a lot of the Bible chronology prophecies, to get it right. It is a technical correction.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    leaving_quietly, please note that Larsinger58 believes he's Jesus (yes, that Jesus) reincarnated. Seriously, he actually does. To 'support' his unusual belief, he presents an elaborate alternative history to support his own unique chronology in order to 'prove' he's the Messiah.

    Not everyone on the forum is mentally ill so please don't judge the rest of us based on him.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Some of you here have a firm belief that 607 was NOT the fall of Jerusalem, contrary to the WT beliefs that it was. But, why is it important?

    The 607 (606) doctrine was initially important because it led, among other things, to 1914 when Jesus would put an end to all the earthly Gentile kingdoms, the Millennium of peace would begin, the 144,000 would reign with Christ and mankind would be brought to perfection, etc.

    After that didn't come to pass, the elements of the doctrine were overhauled during the 1920s and '30s until the package as we know it now was complete in the early 1940s. Now it is important because it provides the foundation to the WTS's/GB's claims to divinely-given authority and exclusivity. If the prophetic significance of 1914 is bogus, so is the prophetic significance of 1918 and 1919 when the WTS/anointed Bible Students (we won't quibble about the 'new light' specifics on this) were inspected and chosen to be God's channel or the appointed 'faithful and discreet slave.' The alleged spiritual events of 1918 and 1919 rests on the alleged spiritual events of 1914. If the 607/1914 doctrine is not true, then JWs are not "the Truth" but just another Protestant offshoot religion among 1000s, with their good and bad points like everyone else.

    (Yeah, as Jeffro said, don't let Lars confuse you more - he has his own unique take on chronology/prophecy that bears even less resemblance to reality than the WT scheme does.)

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Dear Leaving Quietly, I think you raise one of the most pertinent points for discussing this with active beleiving JW's.

    I was born in,and in for decades, but one day I sat down and read Daniel Chapter 4 and came to the startling relalisation ( for me) that the 1914 Doctrine was simply nonsense, the fulfilment of the prophecy is given at the end of the Chapter !

    I stopped going in the Door to Door work, I said I could not teach something that was not in the Bible. An Elder said he would return to me with the aim of rebuilding my faith in the 1914 teaching, he never called on me again.

    I found it a good way of leaving quietly. LOL

    There is simply no need to discuss the Fall of Jerusalem and all that with a JW, just say "1914 is not foretold in the Bible".

    Let them try to prove it without any scripture jumping, mental contortions and non-use of common sense, they cannot.

    Without 1914 of course, the present day Governing Body has no mandate, no reason to exist, and certainly no authority, especially to brand anyone an "Apostate".

    All the claims of those self-appointed jack-asses are based upon fiction they have invented, nothing is real or accurate about their claims for themselves.

  • Emery
    Emery

    leaving_quietly

    This is not even a christian or jewish mandate in the bible to worry about. It is a secular idea and requires the believer to go beyond the scriptures and read into them ideas that were never intended.

  • pixel
    pixel

    leaving_quietly,

    It's funny too how the WT/FDS/GB ties King Nebu' dream to Jehovah, when they say that the big tree represents His Kingdom. But, when you read the texts, it actually says the contrary:

    1- Daniel wished that the dream would be applied to Nebu's enemies (I see the WT/FDS/GB does this).

    2- Daniel clearly says: "It's you".

    Daniel 4:

    19 Then Daniel (also called Belteshazzar) was greatly perplexed for a time, and his thoughts terrified him. So the king said, “Belteshazzar, do not let the dream or its meaning alarm you.”

    Belteshazzar answered, “My lord, if only the dream applied to your enemies and its meaning to your adversaries! 20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth, 21 with beautiful leaves and abundant fruit, providing food for all, giving shelter to the wild animals, and having nesting places in its branches for the birds— 22 Your Majesty, you are that tree! You have become great and strong; your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky, and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.

    The GB/FDS/WT don't know a thing about Bible prophecy.

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