what ever happened to the king of the north and king of south?

by nowwhat? 60 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Bobcat, again a few observations for what they are worth. The first part is a repetition of my post in a previous thread because I think it is important.

    Modern scholars study the book of Daniel in fragmentary form. I personally view the book as a unit and study it as such. Daniel 11&12 covers a period from the time of Darius the Mede (Dan. 11:1) to the resurrection (Dan. 12:2). Few modern scholars would acknowledge the fact. In sharp contrast to the book of the Maccabees, Daniel makes no direct mention of Hellenistic Reform, and the angel delivering the final vision, actually dooms a Jewish uprising (cf. Dan. 11:14).

    A few conservative scholars view Dan. 11:40-45 as referring to the time of the Antichrist. In addition, Jesus Christ would reject the Maccabean interpretation of "the disgusting thing causing desolation." As a first fulfillment, he applied it to the Romans, not the Seleucid kings (cf. Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luk. 21:20, 21).

    *

    The book of Daniel concentrates on dynasties and not individuals.

    Dan. 2 : Head of Gold, Nebuchadnezzar > Babylonian dynasty, etc.

    Dan. 7 : Beasts > dynasties

    Dan. 8 : Ram > Medo-Persia; He-goat > Greece.

    Dan. 11 > Seleucids/Ptolemies (dynasties), with individual kings and their actions highlighted:

    In the first half of the prophecy mention is made of only three kings of the north (one in vv. 5–9; his sons, vv. 10–12; a third, vv. 13–19) and three kings of the south (the first, vv. 5 and 6; the “branch,” vv. 7–9; and the king, vv. 10–15), distinctly different, whereby of the former, the relation of the sons (v. 10) to the king indefinitely mentioned in v. 11, is admitted, and of the latter the kings of the south, it remains doubtful whether he who is spoken of in vv. 9–15 is different from or is identical with “the branch of her roots” (v. 7).

    Above shows that the prophecy does not concentrate on individual historical personages, but only places in view the king of the south and the king of the north as representatives of the power of these two kingdoms. Of these kings special deeds and undertakings are indeed mentioned, which point to definite persons; e.g., of the king of the north, that he was one of the princes of the king of the south, and founded a greater dominion than his (v. 5); the marriage of the daughter of the king of the south to the king of the north (v. 6); afterwards the marriage also of the daughter of the king of the north (v. 17), and other special circumstances in the wars between the two, which are to be regarded not merely as individualizing portraitures, but denote concrete facts which have verified themselves in history. It is my opinion that these specifics do indeed establish the view that the prophecy consists of a series of predictions of historical fact. These features of the prophecy do find their actual fulfillment in history and do coincide with historical reality.

    *

    For those that do not like the chronological jumps, unfortunately, this is a characteristic of the book. Jerome commented on the drastically abbreviated Persian history of Dan. 11:2: “the Spirit of prophecy was not concerned about preserving historical detail but in summarizing only the most important matters.” [1]

    My understanding of Chapter 8: Starts with the Medes and Persians (ram) being destroyed by Greece (he-goat) and ends with the destruction of the small horn or fierce king during the end time (cf. Dan. 8:17, 19). Some big chronological jumps involved there.

    My understanding of Chapter 10, 11: Starts with Alexander and ends with the destruction of the king of the north during the end time (cf. Dan. 11:40, 45). The conclusion of the book deals with the resurrection (cf. Dan. 12:2, 13). Again some huge chronological jumps.

    And Bobcat, the text of Dan. 11 does produce a term which would indicate a transition. My source applies the primary fulfillment to “Hellenistic Diadochian kings,” but a secondary fulfillment is a distinct possibility, if one follows Jesus’ reasoning in Matt. 24 and Mark 13.

    For the time appointed. lammou`ad: Daniel (11:27, 29, 35) uses the phrase “for/at the time appointed.” In all three cases it heralds a regime change. The noun mou`ad is related to the verb → y`d, with which it is also explicitly associated in Ex. 30:36; 2 Sam. 20:5. The verb y`d refers either to the making of an appointment between two equal partners, or to such action taken by one person over against another of lower standing; as a rule both cases refer to a meeting at a specified time, and occasionally at a specific place. ya`a? can also mean appoint, designate, appear or come, gather, agree or to have an appointment, appear or reveal oneself. See HOLL. All the West Semitic languages attest a noun m`d. Arab. maw`id means “place/time of an appointment,” Aram. mo`a?a’ means “appointed time, festival” (TDOT, vol. VIII, p. 168).

    Transmission of power : Related term sama? ya? is used about 20 times in the OT; often it clearly conveys the idea of transmitting something from a person to another person or a sacrificial animal. In each of these cases where more precise information is given it would appear that there is some transmission involved in the act of placing hands on animal or person; the same may be said of the commissioning of Levites or Joshua. It is therefore appropriate to see here a transmission of power. The same terminology is used later for rabbinic ordination, and is explained as the pouring of the personality “as from one vessel into another.” See TDOT, vol. V, pp. 423, 424.

    Thus, in Daniel 11 the phrase lammou`ad “for/at the time appointed” [“for/at the appointed time”] would indicate the kiing of the north having undergone a transition. The end would be postponed until this king of the north has taken his stand (cf. Dan. 8:19; Dan. 11:27, 35). See also TDOT, vol. VIII, p. 172.

    If “leader of the covenant” (Dan. 11:22; cf. Dan. 9:26, 27) does not refer to Jesus, the Messiah, it would be an unreliable, and utterly worthless history lesson.

    [TDOT = Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament]

    [HOLL = Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament]


    [1] St. Jerome, A Commentary on the Book of Daniel, translated into English by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., p. 92.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Nevertheless, I do find Dan. 2 & 7 interesting if not remarkable, even if written by a 2nd century Jew.

    Clever? Maybe. But remarkable? Not so much.

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Vidqun:

    I don't have the time at the moment, but I'm going to print out your post for later going-over. Thanks for your thoughts.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    If “leader of the covenant” (Dan. 11:22; cf. Dan. 9:26, 27) does not refer to Jesus, the Messiah, it would be an unreliable, and utterly worthless history lesson.

    Well, it doesn't. Association of the 'seventy weeks' with Jesus is a later corruption by Christians and requires distortion of known historical events in the Persian period.

    It is what it is.

  • andrekish
    andrekish

    Hiya Vidqun,

    'I personally believe the book, or parts of it, to have been written by a Jewish exile, called Daniel. The majority of it contains prophecy and is definitely worth my while to study.'

    I think you are on the right track. And you don't ever have to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses to understand that.

    I keep seeing images in my head that later happen and it happens time and time and time again. I have no explanation for it other than esp which is probably common to humanity, 'coz I'm no prophet given visions by the Creator, who I'm absolutely convinced actually exists.

    I genuinely think Daniel saw what he says he saw. And the other prophets. Can't help thinking that 'coz of what I keep seeing.

    I'm waiting for the apocalypse, not because some-one argues the case and details of ancient prophesy but 'coz it's coming.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I had a social studies teacher (not a JW) in the 70's (dating myself) who invited a bunch of kids from his class over to his home. He entertained us with a slide show on end-time prophecy and the identification of the King of the North as the USSR. He had the whole thing sewn up. Looking back, he was SO inappropriate. Inviting students in to his home. Attempting to indoctrinate us with his bunkum. Even back then, I smelled a fish. He got in to a discussion about heaven and how we would know of we got there and I told him I was content to wait to find out. He got beet-red he was so angry. I thought that was rather un-Christian to own a belief so hard that a decent retort would be so threatening.

  • MrFreeze
    MrFreeze

    I remember they made a change in the Revelation book speculating the king of the north (I think it was king of the north) was China.

    We had a brother who had a mind like an encyclopedia. He knew a lot of Biblical Greek and Hebrew. King of the north was one of his favorite things to speculate about. When he died his wife said "The first thing he's gonna say when he gets resurrected is 'Who was the king of the north?'"

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    I'm waiting for the apocalypse, not because some-one argues the case and details of ancient prophesy but 'coz it's coming.

    There's more evidence that heat-death of the universe is coming. But not for a very long time.

    In any case, surely you have better things to do to occupy your time??

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Vidqun:

    Just a side question. Is TDOT and HOLL on line? or are you fortunate enough to own them/have access via a library?

    Thanks

    Take Care

  • smiddy
    smiddy

    Your Will Be Done On Earth 1958 Ed. , the king of the north was the USSR , that is the "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics " (not just russia alone ) the king of the south was the Anglo-American alliance since the end of world war 2 . I was baptized in 1960 and I thought this was an extroardinary prophecy proving the JW`s were right , and I was a gullible 19 year old ,who had some problems and was looking for a way out .I had found the truth .For many years I thought this was so true , it fitted so many facts of the history of the time ,or so I thought.

    I have been out since 1993 has their been another book on Daniel since then ? And if so how does it differ from the 1958 version ,? I would be interested to see .

    smiddy

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