If Jesus is god???!!!

by El_Guapo 54 Replies latest jw friends

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    The scriptures are very unclear about whether Jesus is God.

    I've heard this before, and I'm not sure where it comes from. It seems to me that the scriptures are extremely clear in showing that Jesus is God, and repeat it over and over again.

    Here are just a few that I appreciate:

    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

    For unto us a Child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder: and his name will be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

    because he had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:18

    The Jews answered him [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:33

    And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28

    ...Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:6

    ...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9

    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58

    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8)

    This final scripture is a reference to the name that God gave Moses, "I AM". Jesus here was claiming that when the OT refers to YHWH or Jehovah, it is referring to Him.

    So I can't say that the scriptures are not clear in calling Jesus "God". They do so many times. And there are many more that credit things to Jesus that only God could take credit for. Examples are: He creates, He forgives sin, and He accepts worship. All 3 are things that ONLY belong to God.

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    i know that some trinities state something about them not being different persons, which doesn't make sense.

    No, this is a misunderstanding that has been put forth by the Watchtower. The Trinity affirms that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all different persons. But it also stresses that they have the same nature. There are not 3 God, but One God.

    The Athanasian creed states in part: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.

    Also as far as designs (I think it was) who said that Daniel is not speaking about Jesus. That's fine to feel that way and obviously many of the Jews feel that way. But from the Christian perspective, it was speaking about Jesus going before the Ancient of Days. The point was that He accepted worship. If this was Jesus, as all Christians believe, then this means that He was accepting something that only belongs to God.

  • PSacramento

    The Trinity ( in regards to Jesus) is best described in this two passages from Paul:

    Philippians 2:5-11

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Colossians 2:9-15

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

    Jesus has the same Nature as The Father and, just like a human son who shares his human nature with his father, Christ shares His Divine Nature with His Father and, if His Father is God ( A statement of Whoi and WHat the Father is, not a name), then Chris is God.

    The only people that have issues with the Trinity doctrine are those that associate the word God with the PERSONAL identity of The Father of Christ.

    To them, God = The Father ( another name, sole title, etc) so to claim that Christ was God is, to them, to claim that Christ is His Own Father.

  • wolfman85

    An honest question, Is there any difference in the nature of "God" and the nature of "a god"??

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Christ Alone,

    You do know about much Christianity. As I've said before, though, your take on Gnosticism was exactly the opposite of what all academics teach. You missed the very essence of it.

    I have read the scriptures, focusing on the text. Lawyers are well trained to do so. I also know some of the Christology debates -but not well. My prof went thorugh Jewish messianic expectations and how drastically different Jesus was from the expected Messiah. We were also taught that Hebrew scriptures were written for Hebrews and not for Christians.

    There is no reason to trust me. One thing you may be doing is using LORD for God. LORD means Sir, sort of like an English lord. Every academic book or article I have read uses "the son of man" as the key. Indeed, I heard Daniel Berrigan deliver a sermon on "son of man" at Woodstock Jesuit Seminary in the same neighborhood as Columbia University. My main research paper was on the "historical Jesus." Some emphasis has changed since I wrote it. The core is still valid. We project our wishes, fears, etc. onto Jesus. It is very hard to read Jesus accurately.

    I chose "historical Jesus" b/c I had no idea what it meant. If I chose some Pauline topic, as most of the assigned topics were, the Witness training would have agitated me and resulted in a bad grade. So I had this background when I read countless books and articles about Jesus. My rigorous readings were that indeed both views are merely extrapolitions of scripture.

    We would find it easier to study Buddhism or Hinduism. B/c Christianity has so permeated our culture, we can not help projecting our image of Jesus on to the text. I guard against doing so. Believe me, I want Trinity! B/c of my classes, I became very interested in Jewish interpretation of the OT. They were the audience. Time and time again I would have sworn on a stack of Bibles that such OT scripture was obviously fulfilled in the NT. When I discussed it with Jewish rabbis,friends, or read the Encyclopedia Judaica, it then became clear what the text actually stated.

    I am not criticizing you. We all do it. I don't see a remedy besides being aware you do so. Of course, with the Son of Man business things are complicated. Dan Berrigan's take was priceless. The lectionary reading involved Son of Man. He did not bother to explain it for his audience. He just said "who knows what it all means?" "What can I add." Have a nice day. Sat down.

  • Las Malvinas son Argentinas
    Las Malvinas son Argentinas

    Does anyone read this shit? How many times do we have to hear about these fucking classes and professors?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Some of your scriptural references are not considered genuine works of Paul. The writing style is markedly different and so is much of the theology. The Timothy books are not considered Pauline. Romans and one other book that I cannot recall (I am certain others know which one) are the gold standard for Paul. Translations will make a difference. I am not familiar with the American Standard Version.

    Does any of this truly matter? The creeds are extrascriptural. Much of the impetus to have the creeds adopted was to bring political unity to the empire.

    These creeds were clumsy in their day. People experience God in many different aspects. Some do not experience him at all.

    The church was part of the empire when they were written.

    I read about Modalism today.

    I believe we can agree that the WT did not correctly describe the idea of the Trinity. Does any believer know the true nature of God? We can only apprehend a little. Perhaps some mystery makes God more godly. If it were essential for Christian belief to know an exact formulation, it should have been written in Jesus' time by an accurate transcriber. Paul and the apostles focus on someting else. When I read it it, I do read what I want to read. Paul approaches the Trinity.

    I don't believe in the Trinity as in the Nicene or St. Anthansius' Creed. Not the details. I recite it. Compared to when I read these verses as a Witness, I see much Christian freedom. Of course, freedom would not unify an empire.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run


    Just setting the stage. This is a forum with new members joining often.

    If I do mention it, it is b/c I can still pinch myself that this brand new, wonderful world opened to me. I had no idea it existed as a Witness. Altho I was raised to b elieve in Jesus, I could not stomach the WTBTS. An accident opened up this great world. It goes way beyond belief. Altho I lived in the neighborhood during college, I had no idea how important the surrounding area was. People around the world call the strip, the Protestant Vatican. Besides Columbia University, there are four or five seminaries that interact with the school. A major conservative Jewish seminary is located there. Most of the major Protestant theologians, mostly German, lived and worked at these schools.

    Also, I was awed but Jewish and Catholic students were, too. Altho everything else was going crazy in the 1960s, students craved these classes. I travel far to have access to these settings. The professionalism is impressive. These are not the "norms" for religion in America.

    If you have not had access to these books or scholars, much is available online. Many people write popular books.

    Of course, if I attended private school and were active in these churches, I would take it for granted. Sorry if I have enthusiasm. I only wish I could learn far more. Besides intellectual discourse, we have also had great laughs. Few places in the world offer the opportunities I was fortunate to have. I will not pretend that I did experience this world and that it continues to inform my views.

  • mP

    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8)

    This is a reference to the zodiac circle which has no beginning and end. The sun travels and visits each house over 26000 years. The age Jesus was referring too was when the Sun moved from Pisces (aka fish symbology) to Aquarius. Before Pisces was Aires the Ram(aka all the Ram stuff in Judaism). Judaism was anti golden calf etc worship and of course Taurus the BUll was tthe age before Aires.

  • prologos

    just a question: has anybody answered the question why Jesus the Christ is called the son of MAN when Joseph was not involved? why marys' geneology is ended in a male ancestor? MAN like in mankind?

    designs: that is why Catholics prefer to pray to Mary, she is nicer than the both of them. The saints are or will be in gods nature too, immortal . all 144 000 of them.

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