Can Christendom be both Babylon the Great and the "net" gathering people for God's Kingdom???

by Kosonen 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Kosonen

    The Greatest Man-book (wt-org.) on chaper 43 defines what the net symbolizes, when Jesus said: 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach; and they sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but the bad they cast away. (Matthew 13:47,48) The explanation in the litterature of wt-org is that the net represents all organizations claiming to christian. So how then can they at the same time except for WT-organization be the Babylon the Great, the most evil symbol you can find in the Bible? And if all other religious organizations are Babylon the Great, when did they become it? For example when Martin Luther revolted against the Pope, when did Martin Luther become him self a part of Babylon the Great? Or did he ever become that. Thanks to him Europe got freedom to read the Bible.

    And I would also like to ask: How could the bishops under Constntine decide what the Bible canon is, if they where at the same time Babylon the Great? Did the Bible come from Babylon the Great? I find the definition of Babylon the Great so untrue by jw-org and other christian organizations. Every one is pointing the finger to something I find very untrue. Does not the situation today resemble the time when John the Baptist, the "Elijah" began to preach repentance and God's kingdom and the coming of Messiah? When he begun to preach there where different sects competing for the audience in Israel and non of them was the chanel of salvation. But they served their role because Jesus said: do all what they teach, but do not according to their deeds. Simmilarly here we have "about 35000 christian organizations" teaching different aspects of the Gospel, even though not near 100% is accurate knowledge. It is like the jewish sects in that time. But until now we have not seen the second coming of Elijah, who would restore all things. So I don't believe christian organizations can be the mystery Babylon the Great. What do you think it rather is?
  • hamsterbait

    The Gibbering Buddy has already shown it has no difficulty playing the Harlot by joining the UN (like all the other harlot religions did)


    turning round and saying they are untainted spiritual virgins untainted by politics or their association with interfaith organisations.

    Most witlesses can hold two or three contradictory ideas rattling around inside their skull, without ever seeing a problem.

    If you do you must be a filthy apostate.


  • Satanus

    Well, of course, the catholic is the original church. It has been the assembler, preserver and spreader of the bible for almost 2000 yrs. Were it not for the catholic spreading the 'gospel' across europe, expunging paganism as it went, luther would have been arguing pagan points instead.

    In the preterist view, babylon is jerusalem and rome - Check out preterism. When i was a christian, it ended up making the most sense to me.

    Protestants are the breakaways. The cults and sects are further breakaways. Fragmentation is what you would expect because of the inherent weaknesses and contradictions of christianity. They cause cognitive dissonences. Those dissonences cause all the strife and conflict, as various groups fixate on the various conflicting strains of christian thought.


  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    Kosonen...that doesn't sound very theocratic of you, disagreeing with the WTS... Are you falling for the snare of independent thinking?

    The Watchtower January 15th 1983 Issue, Page 22:

    "Avoid Independent Thinking"

    "Avoid.... questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization."

    "How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization."------------------------------------

    The Watchtower January 15th 1983 Issue, Page 27:

    "....some who point out that the organization has had to make some adjustments before, and so they argue: "This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe." This is independent thinking. Why is it so dangerous?"

    Watchtower March 15th 1986 Issue, Page 17:

    "Beware of those who try to put forward their own contrary opinions."

    The Watchtower July 1st 1994 Issue, Pages 12-13:

    "As loyal servants of Jehovah, why would we even want to peek at the propaganda put out by rejecters of Jehovah's table...."

    The Watchtower August 1st 1960 Issue, Page 474:

    "Jehovah's witnesses, though international, are 'one heart and soul,' of the 'same mind' and the 'same line of though.'"

    The Watchtower June 1st 1967 Issue, Page 338:

    " Jehovah's organization it is not necessary to spend a lot of time and energy in research, for there are brothers in the organization who are assigned to that very thing...."

    The Watchtower August 1st 1980 Issue, Page 19:

    "Thus, the one who doubts to the point of becoming an apostate sets himself up as a judge. He thinks he knows better than his fellow Christians, better also than the 'faithful and discreet slave,' through whom he has learned the best part, if not all that he knows about Jehovah God and his purposes."

    The Watchtower March 15th 1986 Issue, Page 12:

    "Do you wisely destroy apostate material?"

    The Watchtower March 15th 1986 Issue, Page 14:

    "Why is reading apostate publications similar to reading pornographic literature?"

    Watchtower, February 1st 1987 Issue, Page 19:

    "First of all, there is the matter of being obedient and ready to respond to encouragement. When direction and encouragement come from the proper source, it is only right that we should respond readily."

    "We also remember that one feature of 'the wisdom from above' is being 'ready to obey.' (James 3:17) These are qualities that all Christians are encouraged to put on. Due to background and upbringing, some may be more given to independent thinking and self-will than others. Perhaps this is an area where we need to discipline ourselves and 'make our mind over' so that we can perceive more clearly what the 'will of God' is. Romans 12:2."

    Who do you think they are referring to when they say that witnesses should be ready to obey?

    I don't expect you to respond to this, since your very presence on this site is a direct violation of the "counsel" given by God Himself, through the Governing Body (now aka the Fathful and Discreet Slave)

  • Satanus

    Oh, kosonen is a jw?? Congratulations, kosonen, on stepping out and exploring things outside the wt sandbox.


  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    Well shoot. Put my foot in my mouth this time. I think I was confusing Kos with someone else. Stupid me. Sorry if you're not really a jw, Kos. I jumped on that too quickly and probably made an ass out of myself. Then again, maybe you are. And that's fine.

    Maybe I was thinking that you were because of what you posted on this thread:

  • Bobcat


    Just for the record, there was a revamp of the WT understanding on this parable in 2008. Here is an extract from the WTLIB of the explanation:

    *** w08 7/15 pp. 20-21 You Do Not Know Where It Will Have Success! ***

    The Dragnet

    15 More important than the number of those who claim to be disciples of Jesus Christ is the quality of those disciples. Jesus alludes to this aspect of Kingdom growth when he gives another illustration, one about a dragnet. He said: "Again the kingdom of the heavens is like a dragnet let down into the sea and gathering up fish of every kind."-Matt. 13:47.

    16 The dragnet, which represents the Kingdom-preaching work, gathers fish of every kind. Jesus goes on to say: "When [the dragnet] got full they hauled it up onto the beach and, sitting down, they collected the fine ones into vessels, but the unsuitable they threw away. That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things: the angels will go out and separate the wicked from among the righteous and will cast them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be."-Matt. 13:48-50.

    17 Does this separating refer to the final judgment of the sheep and the goats that Jesus said would occur when he arrived in his glory? (Matt. 25:31-33) No. That final judgment will occur at Jesus' coming during the great tribulation. By contrast, the separating referred to in the illustration of the dragnet occurs during "the conclusion of the system of things." This is the time in which we are now living-the days leading up to the great tribulation. So how is a separating work taking place now?

    18 Literally millions of symbolic fish from the sea of humanity have been attracted to Jehovah's congregation in modern times. Some attend the Memorial, others come to our meetings, and still others are happy to study the Bible. But do all of these prove to be genuine Christians? They may be "hauled up onto the beach," but Jesus tells us that only "the fine ones" are gathered into vessels, which represent Christian congregations. The unsuitable are thrown away, eventually to be cast into a symbolic fiery furnace, denoting future destruction.

    19 As with the unsuitable fish, many who once studied the Bible with Jehovah's people have stopped studying. Some born to Christian parents have never really wanted to become footstep followers of Jesus. They have been unwilling to make the decision to serve Jehovah or after serving him for a while have ceased doing so. (Ezek. 33:32, 33) It is imperative, though, that all honesthearted ones allow themselves to be gathered into the vessellike congregations before the final day of judgment and to remain in a place of safety.

    It is interesting reading this after several years of 'learning' since this came out in the WT. Just off hand, it has the typical WT over-explaining of every aspect of the parable. Specific meaning is assigned to every detail. For example, 'suitability of the fish' is determined at the time of a Bible Study. If you make it past that, your in.

    The "vessels" represent "congregations." Why? Because we said so. I think chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation did not see it this way. Also see 2Tim 2:20-22.

    Take Care

  • irondork


  • Kosonen

    Hi there, I'll clarify my standing for you. My wife is still jw and my children go to meetings with them. And I like to read My Book with Biblical Stories to my youngest son. I had carefully avoided any apostate material until I was disfellowshiped as an apostate. The elders said that I could with my ideas start a new religion. But I just wanted help them to have a more accurate knowledge of the truth. All my differing understanding appeared while I was reading the bible and just every time before reading I prayed for God's holy spirit's guidance. It all happened during about 3 years while I was still a jw. Finally I started to speak about it to brothers and sisters and but first I offered GB in a letter my help to clarify them the truth about a whole list of matters. It was about 5 years ago.

    I hope everyone would do the same. Just examine the holy scriptures and praying God to guide them constantly and I think we all would be lead to the same understanding of the truth.

  • Satanus

    Have you read either of ray franz' books?


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