1914 - It was the end of the world as we knew it - things got much better! (page 3)

princecharmant

No denying the fact! These are the best of times! Even sworn enemies make peace after just a couple days of "war" (Isreal/Hamas). Gays get married and are not stoned to death. Good muslims even drink alcohol.

Life is cool.

PC

TheStumbler

@ prologos,

I think you are right, nuclear weapons have made open wars between superpowers but I don't think that is the only contributing factor to the relative peace since 1945.

globalisation and international trade mean that economies are much more integrated. So war between many countries now would be much like a business man murdering his customers - it doesn't make sense.

This was even one of the reasons behind the European Coal and steel Community in the 1950s - it was thought if European countries were trading parnets they would be less likely to go to war with each other. And it worked, Europe has never experienced such stability. The ECSC became the European Economic Community and is now the European Union. So I think increased global trade has had a stablising ieffect on the world.

Also, more recently modern communication technology is having an impact. It makes the propogandists job much harder. For example, It's hard for me to hate Iranians when I know many young Iranian men like SouthPark and videogames - just like me.

And of course the trend towards democracy in the Arab Spring has been facilitated by modern communication technology

carla

Great thread! thank you!

TheStumbler

Well, I got a reply. The reply totally failed to engage with any of the points I raised. Instead my JW relative went on about false religion, how religions are hypocritical, how there is a counter argument to everything (without actually offering a counter argument) and that the facts are just my 'opinion'. How it is unwise to comment on a subject without knowing all the facts etc.

Basically it was a string a platitudes and JW talking points, utterly absent of any cogent argument and totally failed to address any of the points I raised or answer any of my questions.

He also had a little dig at my 'education'. he said that some might consider his 'education' superior to mine. I have a degree in politics and history and I am failry widely read (I read a lot of philosophy, history, and science). He left school at 16 and only reads Watchtower publications.....

I find it so frustrating. Even when I totally destroy his arguments he can't cange his mind. He just reverts back to the comfort of his JW talking points (even if those talking points are the very same that I have just discredited). It annoys me that no matter well constructed my arguments and sound my evidence and logic - his mind cannot be changed....

TheStumbler

It is futile but here is a copy of my response (but I don't know why I bother):

You seem to be confusing facts and opinions. These are facts; the world is healthier than it was 200 years ago, people are living longer, living standards are higher, people are wealthier, fewer children are dying, and the last 60 years have been amongst the most peaceful years in recorded history. The populations of Brazil, India and China account for 40% of global population and their economies are booming and their living standards are improving (to give just one example).

If these facts are incorrect then please explain why but don’t try to dismiss them as mere ‘opinion’ equal in value to your own. You are entitled to your own opinions and beliefs but you are not entitled to you own facts.

You say we see the world from different perspectives and I agree but surely we both agree that the facts mentioned above are improvements - or would you prefer people to have shorter lives and more children to die before reaching adulthood?. And if we agree that these are improvements (and I am assuming that you do agree) and yet you still maintain that the world is still getting worse overall then the world must be getting worse in ways that I have not considered. And I am open to this possibility. But in what ways is the world getting worse (and so badly worse that the negatives outweigh all of the improvements combined)?

You have not given any examples apart from the fact that there are more divorces, more children are born outside of marriage and homosexuals can openly live together.. Let’s define this ‘immorality’ broadly as the liberalisation of society; ‘liberal society’.

Unlike global health and living conditions etc which can be measured objectively, the liberalisation of society is a moral issue and therefore is subjective and a matter of opinion. (I happen to think the liberalisation of society is a massive improvement but that is because I am a libertarian)

If your argument is that ‘liberal society’ is more immoral than slavery, apartheid, judicial torture, capital punishment of children, persecution of minorities, subjugation of women, and lack of human rights combined then yes, you are right, based on that premise, moral values are indeed declining. And you are entitled to that opinion. But is that really a premise you are willing to argue from? Do you honestly believe that ‘liberal society’ is worse than the list of crimes against humanity that I have listed above – all of which were more prevalent before the 20 th century? Or are moral values declining in other ways that you have not yet mentioned?

And I will ask you again. Would you rather have lived in 1900 when average life expectancy and standards, health and living conditions were lower, when your children would have had less chance of reaching adulthood, when homosexuals were imprisoned, where women were not treated as equals etc. In what way was 1900 better than today?

On a side note - in your last emailed you said 'You may have considered the evidence as a whole but do you understand the evidence as a whole, perhaps not, because when you refer to my beliefs or morals your comments... are often untrue' - Please don't make general statements. Be specific - where I have misrepresented you on this subject? If I have I'll gladly retract anything I have said.

You may not think much of my education but it has instilled in me intellectual honesty (and the ability to formulate and evaluate arguments). This means that when I am shown to be wrong I will change my mind – so show me specifically where I am wrong. don't just assert that the world is worse and that all arguments have contrary arguments. Truth is not relative and not all arguments are equal.

cofty

Marking an excellent thread - thanks The Stumbler

jookbeard

excellent work The Stumbler, waiting for the usual ridiculous JW responses.

Aunt Fancy

I really enjoyed this thread. I have been out less than a year and I having been filling my head with new information but it was so nice to read sound evidence disputing the world conditions. I hadn't gotten to this part of my research but I knew the info the WTS was giving out had to be wrong. I have been wiping reprograming my whole mind after almost 30 years of this nonscense and all of the lies stuck in our heads. Thank you very much for your research and the time you put into this post.

TheStumbler

Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm glad some people found the information useful and I'm glad I could return the favour since JWN has provided me with so much valuable information in the past.

straightshooter

The information presented is excellent. When I ask my children and grand-children if they want to live like those before 1914, they quickly say no. No TV, no computer, no facebook, no twitter, and no streaming video and music. Life is definitely better now than in the past.

1914 - It was the end of the world as we knew it - things got much better!

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