by Yan Bibiyan 17 Replies latest watchtower bible
Can you, awsome peoples, please help me with grasping when and how did sin get introduced in the picture?
I am not talking Adam/Eve and the serpent thingy.
I am going way back, following the chain of events.
Seems to me that the very original sin was satan's rebellion against god.
If so, how did satan get this idea in a first place, how was he even able to have the concept of disobedience...
I know, it is a can of worms.
Thanks in advance to all contributors.
Which chain of events?
There is no chain of events in the Bible. It has to be constructed through biblical interpretation. So different religious traditions have different scenarios and narrative constructions of "what really happened" behind the scenes.
So which religious tradition do you mean? Re JWs, I know Rutherford has a rather elaborate idea of how "Lucifer" became "Satan", which isn't taught anymore by JWs.
Probably the OP touches mainly on the notion of "free will".
If Adam and Eve were "programmed" to sin, then it should not have been their fault - as God must have made them that way. Not fair to charge them with sin if God made them sin.
If Adam and Eve actually had "free will" they could have only pleased God if they NEVER USED THEIR FREE WILL. If he told them not to do something, and they never did it on their own - what would be the difference between that and being hard-programmed to do what God wanted?
Many progressive religions have viewed "original sin" as merely the manifest destiny of human free will - not necessarily as a rebellion against God as taught in JW theology.
It is of interest to me that some scientific thinkers are beginning to suspect that no such thing as perfect free will exists in human behavior - it is all really programmed to a great extent, but with minor random elements introduced due to the quantum nature of the thought process in the brain.
James Woods, thank you for better articulating my question.
Leo, the reverse chain of events (notwithstanding the merits of their accutracy or validity) is:
Adam/Eve sinned--> the serpent/satan deceived Eve--> satan must have known good from bad-->satan is the once perfect angel who rebelled against god--> in making the perfect angel(satan), god must have known or allowed for evil--> why was evil created or allowed for in a first place?
The buck seems to stop with the creator.
Am I wrong?
You are right about this: The buck has to stop with the creator in the Genesis story.
However, I have a slight problem with the notion that Satan was the only one who tempted Adam & Eve to sin...
God MADE the tree of knowledge - not Satan. Then, he told them NOT to eat of it - and that was a temptation in itself.
Some view it as a test to see if they could think for themselves - which makes Satan kind of a side player in the drama.
Well, this is what I am trying to wrap my head around.
Evil doesn't seem to just creep in from outer space (or maybe it does ) if there is no PROVISION for it in a first place. I agree that satan/serpent is just one of the factors for A&E sinning.
Which begs the question: what was the purpose of evil (disobedience, imperfection - call it what you want) in a perfect universe, created by a perfect thing, filled with other perfect things. And the realization that evil didn't just come out of nowhere.
Perfection does not create imperfection, as by its very own definition, there is not even the slightest bit of imperfection in perfection.
Ask a creationist and they will tell you that "something doesn't come out of nothing".
Going back to God allmighty (since he is the alpha and omega, to use a well known definition), imperfection has to be an intrinsic part of him, or else it wouldn't exist.
You can't have it both ways.
The devil has been an avowed enemy to mankind since the story began. Is it jealousy ect. Why? I believe you are right, the buck stops with the Creator. He knows all the details and we would love to know. Check out what Quran says about this MAJOR event. Hummm.......
Adam/Eve sinned--> the serpent/satan deceived Eve--> satan must have known good from bad-->satan is the once perfect angel who rebelled against god--> in making the perfect angel(satan), god must have known or allowed for evil--> why was evil created or allowed for in a first place?
My point is, this is constructed through interpretation and goes beyond what Genesis actually says; there is no Satan, no notion of a perfect angel turning bad, etc. in the Eden narrative. The chain of events you give represents one line of biblical interpretation, drawing on some early intracanonical traditions in the Bible and building up a sequence. Early Judaism had a whole host of ideas on how evil started, some of which had nothing to do with the Eden narrative (e.g. the Enochic view of the origin of evil blames the Watchers who taught humankind how to sin and evil continues to arise through the efforts of the dead souls of the Nephilim, a.k.a. the evil spirits). And there are other scenarios, such as the Life of Adam and Eve (first century AD) which has Satan rebel because he refused to worship Adam as commanded by God.
The question is interesting nonetheless, it is one that inspired generations of exegetes to develop new ways of reading the text.
Yan Bibiyan, you are correct, God is not perfect as put forth in Genesis. He creates imperfection, he has regrets, he loses his temper, etc. Like the Olympians, he's a being created in OUR image.
Judaism, Islam reject the concept of original sin, only Christianity makes that claim of the three Abrahamic faiths. Why? When it comes to religion, holy scriptures, TRUTH. Give it the acid test. Falsehood by its very nature is bound to die. I wish You success in the journey.
