Shunning non-JWs and shunning in general

by jws 18 Replies latest jw friends

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  jws

  Often the topic of shunning comes up on this forum, how bad it is, unloving, etc.

  My question is this. Even if you think disfellowshipping is bad, have you ever cut off ties and/or avoided anyone? Maybe not to the level of JWs, but do you just try to avoid talking to some people or try to be in another part of the room at social events? Maybe because of things they've done or their behavior?

  Some people are just a-holes and I avoid them. Some have gone so far that I refuse to speak to them. Others I may say hi to and maybe I'm polite to, but that's about as far as it's going to go.

  So I basically "disfellowhip" or "shun" people who aren't even JWs. But I disagree with the treatment of disfellowshipped JWs - at least in general. I mean if there was a child molestor, disfellowhipping and shunning are far too easy for him and they should be jailed as well. Not talking to one, no problem.

  Does that mean my disagreement with disfellowshipping is that I don't agree that the crime is that bad or the person deserves another chance? Or that I don't agree with being told who to avoid? What makes me shunning a worldly person different than disfellowshipping?

  I know one thing is we weren't told what the DF'ed person did and were expected to shun them anyway.
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  cobaltcupcake

  It's kind of humorous, but I have more or less "shunned" someone because of their inexcusable behavior. Oddly enough he was an ex-JW.

  Corporate moved him to our office, and when I found out he was an ex-JW I was ecstatic, hoping to have an ear to bend when the mood struck me. He even moved into my apartment complex.

  Then I found out that he was a thief, a gross liar, a braggart, and a two-faced narcissistic a-hole. He threw everyone, including me, under the bus more than once, undermined our relationships with clients, and supported a drug-addicted girlfriend by stealing from petty cash. I wanted nothing to do with him, a sentiment shared by almost everyone else in the office.

  We ganged up on him, presented our complaints to Corporate, and they shipped him back to HQ.

  The Odd Life of Jehovah's Witnesses - Shunning
• 

  lisaBObeesa

  So I basically "disfellowhip" or "shun" people who aren't even JWs.

  What makes me shunning a worldly person different than disfellowshipping?

  I know one thing is we weren't told what the DF'ed person did and were expected to shun them anyway.

  Yes, that is a BIG difference. As a JW you are required to completely shun anyone the elders tell you to shun, and to continue shunning them until the elders tell you must STOP shunning them, and you may not know why you are shunning them.

  But there are more differences:

  1) If one of those non-jw people that you avoid walked up to you and said 'hi' would you look right through them and keep walking as if they were not even there?

  Do you treat these people like they are already dead?

  If not, you don't 'disfellowhip' or 'shun' people in the way that JWs do.

  And...

  2) One person avoiding another person because they don't like their behavior is completely different from a person's entire social group punishing them with extreme collective aggression.

  Avoiding someone because you don't like their behavior is not abuse.

  Shunning a person the way JW's shun disfellowhsipped people is mental and emotional abuse.

  3) Avoiding someone because you don't like their behavior is not trying to blackmail the other person.

  JW shunning is for the purpose of trying to blackmail people...it is for the purpose of controlling people...it is for the purpose of making people do what the JWs want them to do. It is saying 'I am going to withhold my love from you until you do what I want.' Totally different from just avoiding a person because you don't like their behavior.

  4) avoiding a person because you don't like your behavior is not trying to punish the person.

  JW shunning is for the purpose of punishment, as well as blackmail...
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  00DAD

  What Lisa said. There's big difference for avoiding, even shunning someone, for reasons that you decide in contrast to shunning someone because the elders tell you without you even knowing why.

  One is YOUR decision, the other the decision is made for you.
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  rip van winkle

  I have.
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  King Solomon

  All true, but let's not forget:

  As the old saying goes, "even a blind mouse sometimes finds the cheese".

  Some of the people JWs DF and shun ARE actually guilty of committing horrific crimes and offenses, and ARE the type of people who exhibit abhorrent abusive behavior. Granted, they DF for unrepentent "smokers", etc but sometimes they DO DF the child molesters, the abusive alcoholics who beat their spouses and children, etc.

  Secular society also "shuns" people by placing them in prison, or giving them the invisible "mark" on their records for committing crimes. So not ALL shunning is unwarranted, or esp wrong. In fact, society stereotypes the ex-convict, such that they have a hard time being accepted into society after they've served their time (or have prison tattoos, mandatory disclosure on job apps, etc). Predjudices abound.

  It's easy to forget that point that all shunning is NOT evil and unjustified (esp when on a site like JWN), esp. when you still see the traits which no doubt led to someone being removed involuntarily from the congregation still on display.
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  lisaBObeesa

  Some of the people JWs DF and shun ARE actually guilty of committing horrific crimes and offenses, and ARE the type of people who exhibit abhorrent abusive behavior.

  Is this a justification for the JW practice of shunning?

  Secular society also "shuns" people by placing them in prison, or giving them the invisible "mark" on their records for committing crimes. So not ALL shunning is unwarranted, or esp wrong.

  Even prisoners can still talk to their family and friends.
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  King Solomon

  Lisa asked:

  Is this a justification for the JW practice of shunning?

  Uh, YEAH?

  If the person IS guilty (say, if they were convicted of pedophilia in a criminal court of law), and then weren't repentant, do you think they SHOULD be allowed to stay in the congreation after being punished by secular law?

  Even prisoners can still talk to their family and friends.

  So, then the convicted child molester who raped his daughter should be allowed to talk to his daughter, even if the daughter and her mother doesn't want to have any contact with him?
  

  Remember that secular law allows the use of a restraining order, where the offender is absolutely disallowed to make any contact with their victims, or go back to jail/prison, so there's an example of enforced shunning in criminal law.
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  lisaBObeesa

  If the person IS guilty (say, if they were convicted of pedophilia in a criminal court of law), and then weren't repentant, do you think they SHOULD be allowed to stay in the congreation after being punished by secular law?

  The JW practice of shunning is what I am talking about. The way the JWs do it.

  My position is that the fact that they might actually shun a super-duper bad bad person once in a while does not justify the JW practice of shunning overall.
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  King Solomon

  The JW practice of shunning is what I am talking about. The way the JWs do it.

  I thought I WAS talking about that, in the example? Anyway.

  My position is that the fact that they might actually shun a super-duper bad bad person once in a while does not justify the JW practice of shunning overall.

  Well, the common denominator in criminal justice and religious justice is TRUST that the authorities (prosecutors or elders) are rendering a fair decision that balances the needs of the public (congregation) vs the rights of the accused (sinner).

  And the fact is, if you don't believe in the capabilities of the JW elders (as I don't), it's entirely voluntary to be a member (unlike the community in which you live: being subject to their criminal and civil laws is NOT voluntary unless you move to another jurisdiction to escape their laws).

  BTW, almost ALL religions practice a form of shunning: it's a practice that has been upheld in Supreme Court as part of a religion's freedom of association. While the methods and DEPTHS may differ, most groups attempt to control who's a member or not. It just goes with the territory of human group dynamics, the desire to form into cliques, the high-school cool kids club, etc...