Satan cast down from heaven in 1914????

by NeverKnew 18 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • NeverKnew

    So, give me credit...

    Last night I had a discussion on spirituality with my JW friend. Our last few conversations, I didn't have the hang of the "line of questioning that gets them to think" technique down. The only question I found myself asking was "ARE YA' KIDDING ME????" at the top of my lungs.

    Last night I stayed pretty calm and listened to the ridiculous stomach churning answers I was being given. I took part of the script from Steven Hassan's book and mentioned adherents of other religions having "the truth", being told that others in the world would not gain salvation - only they, the shunning policies of these groups as a direct result of questioning their leaders, the leaders being directed by God... I think that's it.

    I then went into 1914 and asked how the leaders knew the JWs were chosen (yeah... I know, they got the message in in the 30s or 40s, but I didn't want to veer off as I have before). He talked about

    the Israelites and how their leaders had been chosen and somehow likened it to the JWs,

    the organization being structured as the Israelites and 1st Century Christians had been organized,

    OH, and they uh.. prayed.

    That's how.

    I asked if it was possible that those in other religions were structurally organized and if they prayed. He said of course. *I did it... stay calm... just stay calm*

    He then continued by saying that there were events that the Society understands that explains how the chronology works. I calmly asked him to try to explain it to me.



    For those of you wondering, I didn't flip out. I just got REALLY sleepy and was done spending time with him.

  • DesirousOfChange

    I can't believe I really believed all this crap at one time!


  • Nambo

    Its what they belive allright, they belive Michael is Jesus, and the first thing he did was cleanse the Heavens back in 1914.

    Revelation 12

    7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

    12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
    and you who dwell in them!
    But woe to the earth and the sea,
    because the devil has gone down to you!
    He is filled with fury,
    because he knows that his time is short.”

    They also have some theory that what happens in Heaven, ie the war in heaven, is mirrored by events on Earth, in this case the first world war, not sure which scriptures they use to get this mirroring notion from.

  • NeverKnew

    Oh no.... say it ain't so. Seriously? He wasn't adlibbing?

    Every time I think I have a handle on a good bit of a topic, I get knocked over with another wtf scenario. When your brain is exploding it's hard to conceal the pain.

    I am so worn out.

  • Glander

    Satan inhabited the body of Adolf Hitler 70 yrs ago. Who is he possesing today?

  • NeverKnew

    Nambo: I asked him where Satan had been for the first 2,000 years. He looked at me like I was insane.

    I treaded down the path of Christ returning in October months after the war had started.

    I told him not to let the name of the war fool him because there were less than 20 countries involved and that right now there were approximately 196 countries in the world. Wasn't sure how many there were in 1914 but the World War did not involve the world in its entirety.

    I can *feel* his brain churning. He's trying to give answers that sound logical but I did pretty well with building real life parallels to make him think about his explanations.

    I just keep getting blindsided.

  • NeverKnew

    Glander: my JW boyfriend. *sigh*

  • LostGeneration


    You did a good job staying calm. One thing to try is letting something like this simmer for a few days and then coming back and saying something like "I just don't get ___________" Then shutup and make them explain it again. Sometimes if you do this it "takes" after a few attempts, and a tiny seed is planted in the mind of the JW.

    It takes incredible patience. Don't rush too fast, keep offering up unconditional love. Good luck to you!

  • jwfacts

    Yes he was telling you as it is. Let me expand.

    Jesus took rulership in October 194. In October, Satan was cast down to the confines of the earth. Satan has great anger at this and is working overtime against everyone and everything, hence the world has become a far worse place to live since October. We have entered the "last days", where humans are acting in a far more evil manner than ever before. We are suffering more famines, more earthquakes and more war than in any time in all of history. So there can be no doubt that these events occurred in October 1914.

    World War 1 started in July 1914. Why did it precede the October event? Possibly Satan was trying to create a diversion, so people would not notice what was happening in heaven.

  • NeverKnew

    Awww LG, thanks :)

    It's out of love that I'm doing this. This love is not just for him. When a poster on JWN is hurting or angry, I feel so much pain for all of you, whether in or out of the organization.

    When I'm tapping on his spiritual shoulder, all of you are in my thoughts.

  • jgnat

    HERE's what to take from Hassan. Talk to your natural man, not the cultic one. The cultic one gives cultic answers. It is natural to get bored with these answers. Don't feel bad if you get tired of that sort of head-butting.

    What are the characteristics of you boyfriend that make him uniquely him? What are his interests and hobbies? What does he care about? Has he given up some dreams in the interests of field service? What were those dreams? Talk to that man. He will be most natural the longer he has been away from a meeting; say, Tuesdays.

  • jgnat

    Headlines for 1914. No mention of angels falling from heaven.

  • NeverKnew

    JW: "Possibly Satan was trying to create a diversion, so people would not notice what was happening in heaven."

    "Not notice what was happening in heaven?" Uh... yeah... because my Heaven-based cable TV station keeps me keenly aware of the events that go on in heaven.. it's fair and balanced too.

    Wait... I'm sorry... Gotta practice keeping the frustration in check.... make it a question....

    "And so, how does one in your faith come to realize or "notice" heavenly events?"

    I'm trying but these questions are making me *sound* insane.

  • Finkelstein

    The insidious stupidity of believing or the incapability to realize these are ancient stories told out of ignorance by

    the people who wrote or spoke those words, during the bronze age of the middle East.

    There's nothing like religion for forcibly weakening people's intellect.

    Fear and ignorance does not enhance the individual or humanity either for that matter.

  • NeverKnew

    JG: I've seen the cult persona and it's creepy. There have been a couple of times he has gotten frustrated in response to my frustration when talking about the Bible and I got it full blast. If I stay calm, he stays natural.

    Now that we've had several conversations, he's typically careful about what he proclaims so these statements surprised me. But of course, if you don't know the foundation is flawed, you would go straight to the building of the house. As he was building the house, I got left behind incredulously trying to process the foundation he was using. (What did he say? Satan was.... where?)

    I called the WT out on the name "Jehovah" and fortunately, as a third generation, he had a lot of the material that supported my... uh... claims. We now use the neutral term "our Father" because of my confusion regarding the use of Raymundus Martini's invented name.

    In consideration my research regarding the number of hours and territory layout "the Lord says" were required in field service made by the Society in the 40s and it's total disrespect of Ezekial 13:6, he works to avoid stepping on one of my landmines.

    He has many great qualities and quite a few hobbies I'm sure he'd like to participate in. I will try to fit these elements into the conversation.

  • Larsinger58

    Yes, it is clear that dating the 2nd coming of Christ, the time when he kicks Satan out of heaven, does not work with the beginning of the "last generation" in 1914 (1914-1994, 80-year generation, Ps. 90:10). If you follow the context and timeline, it is clear the 2nd coming occurs near the very end of that generation rather than the very beginning.

    But be clear, 1914 is a very good date for the beginning of the last genereation, because the first sign of that last generation is a world war, i.e. "nation vs. nation, and kingdom vs. kingdom." But 1914 is incorrectly dating the second coming or the "end of the gentile times" which occurs when the Jews actually are restored to their homeland as promised, which takes place on November 30, 1947.

    If you follow strict Bible chronology and date the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE, which is what Martin Anstey does by applying the "70 weeks" prophecy to Cyrus, then the date you get for the fall of Jerusalem is 529 BCE. That is, when 455 BCE dates the 1st of Cyrus, 70 years earlier dates the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar II to 525 BCE. (455 + 70 = 525 BCE). Year 23 is the year of the last deportation (Jer. 52:30). The fall of Jerusalem thus occurs 4 years earlier in year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar II in 529 BCE. When we apply the "7 times" prophecy of 2520 years to 529 BCE, we get 1992 as the year of the 2nd coming, rather than 1914.

    2520 - 607 = 1913 + 1 = 1914

    2520 - 529 = 1991 + 1 = 1992

    The only question now would be if the true date for the 2nd coming per the Bible occurs before the "last generation" ends in 1994? That answer is obviously, YES. 1992 does occur prior to the end of that generation in 1994. Only 1992 is near the very end of that generation, the last event, and not the first event.

    As a further reference, Matthew 24:29 notes that the 2nd coming does not occur until after the "great tribulation": "Immediately after the tribulation of those days... the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven." The "great tribulation" which if not cut short would have exterminated all the "holy ones" is a reference to the HOLOCAUST. The "holy ones" are a reference to the natural Jews. The assigned days of this great tribulation are 7 years from 1940-1947, but these days of WWII were cut short in 1945. That's because, per Zech 13:8, only two-thirds of the Jews were to be exterminated and one third was to be restsored to their homeland. But six million out of nine million (2/3rds) Jews were killed by late 1944! If things continued to go the way of the Nazi Germans, indeed all the Jews in the world could have been exterminated, which was their intent. So to preserve the one-third prophesied to regain their homeland, WWII was cut short in 1945.

    So when you have the correct dating, then all the related prophesies work out perfectly.

    Satan was kicked out of heaven on December 25, 1992 at the time of the second coming and will soon be abyssed when Armageddon starts (any day now?) But the fact that the elect understand the "great tribulation", which is a specifically dated event occurred on time, adds confidence that Armageddon, though it might seem "delayed" will not be "late" (Hab. 2:3).

  • Finkelstein

    "nation vs. nation, and kingdom vs. kingdom."

    Taking those words as they are, doesn't mean jack shit, since all throughout human history this has been going on,

    even more so prior to 1914. The only distinguishing difference post 1914 is the number of people involved, due to the increase in population

    of those particular nations.

    For example if you were you were to pinpoint a era in the 1700's and look what was happening throughout the world in each given Continent

    you find many wars happening or occurring by tribal kingdoms, certainly much more than today.

    It was just by fateful coincidence that the WTS. charlatans headed by C T Russell, calculated that 1914 was suppose to be the start of Armageddon.

    Later on when it was realised Armageddon didn't happen in 1914, the WTS. leaders still exploited their luck by creating a new significant date toward 1914

    as a supporting means to sell their published goods.

    By the way the WTS. today are so egregiously corrupt as a religious publishing company, they wont truthfully admit to what

    exactly C T Russell was preaching or teaching prior to the year involving 1914. They will say though that he was preaching the " Truth"

  • kurtbethel

    I will accept it at face value that Satan was booted down from the Pleiades in 1914.

    He no doubt landed in Brooklyn and was taken in by a corporation there. They tended his bruises, cleaned him up and presented him to everyone as Jesus. Yes, that's it. Watchtower Jesus is Satan!

    Watchtower Jehovah's Witness Jesus is really Satan

  • Designer Stubble
    Designer Stubble

    This shows that the Bible was written in a time that there was either heaven or earth. If the Bible was divinely inspired, surely Satan could have been limited to another galaxy far far away...but of course the telescope was not invented yet. Therefore, there was only heaven or earth - nothing more.

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