For Recovery: A discussion about the Great Crowd and the Other Sheep

by Londo111 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • TD
    TD
    It is a logical fallacy to assert that the use of "naos" in Revelation 7 conclusively signifies that this must be the temple sanctuary...

    An example of this is: 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do YOU not know that YOU people are God’s temple (naos), and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU?"

    Normally you would defer first to the way in which an author picks and chooses words within his own writings. In other words, you wouldn't clarify how author 'A' intended a word to be understood by running to author 'B' especially if author 'B' had an entirely different writing syle.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Question 2: Who are the other sheep?

    They are the gentiles, the people of the nations.

    http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-2.html#III

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    Here is the Society's latest on the issue.

    http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002327#s=0:0-16:32

    A few quotes:

    " It is reasonable to say that the great crowd worships Jehovah in one of the earthly courtyards of his great spiritual temple, specifically the one that corresponds with the outer courtyard of Solomon’s temple."

    However, as we've established the courtyard is outside the temple (naos)--but the Great Crowd are in the Naos. Most of the Questions from Readers is an update why there is no antitype to the Courtyard of the Gentiles and equated the Great Crowd to proselytes.

    "Of course, those proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard, where the priests performed their duties. And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah’s “holy priesthood” while they are on earth." (1 Peter 2:5)

    The article is scant on explanation…it just makes statements without Scripturally backing them up. True--Proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard, but according to Revelation, the Great Crowd IS in the Naos (the Temple). Therefore the Great Crowd would be part of the holy priesthood and thus would be adopted sons of God.

  • WinstonSmith
    WinstonSmith

    Bump.

    Some good discussion here on a key teaching of the WTS but this is getting less attention than certain other threads that are somewhat less productive.

    Londo started with a well laid out question for Recovery. Recovery responded with some references. Londo replied with a review of those references and maintains his initial assessment.

    I believe the ball is in Recovery's court now. I'm eager to see some energy put into developing this conversation to see how it unfolds.

    Cheers!

    WS

  • freydo
    freydo

    The other sheep were the lost tribes - ie non-Jews

    The Great Crowd would consist of the above along with pagan converts

  • Londo111
  • WinstonSmith
    WinstonSmith

    Bump.

    There is a perfectly good thread going here, with some good dialogue, yet it is being ignored, and a new thread on pretty much the same subject has been started.

    There are still a lot of unanswered questions here. Some might say " I am glad onlookers can see how no one will address the points and most people are simply not interested 'in the truth about the truth'." (quote from Recovery in his post #201)

    Everyone is welcome to believe what they want to believe, but reviewing different points of views and coming to their own conclusions. Threads like this are a way people can learn about different points of view, so let's keep it going not "for the sake of exJws" but "for the sake of JWs" (another quote from Recovery in his post #201)

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    Recovery requested I post in the other thread, but really, who could add anything more to what Leolaia has to say on the matter? For the most part, objectivity was lost and things became personal. As you pointed out Winston, we already had the same topic going on over here, and many questions have not been addressed by the apologist (for instance in regard the Other Sheep).

    Revelation is highly interpretive. I've a preterist viewpoint (somewhere between partial and full). Some are historists, idealists, and futurists. There are the atheist and agnostic viewpoints about Revelation as well. And in each, there are various schools of thought. There is no consensus "apostate" interpretation. But coming to a consensus on matters of theology is not what this forum is about.

    In this thread the key thing is examining whether the Society's current viewpoint can withstand the exegesis. To do that, we must examine what the Society is saying currently and compare that to the Bible alone. The apologetic response actually has not been in accord to what has been in the Publications. I'm not sure if the Society would view the response as apostate or not, but if so, that would be ironic.

    The Society views the vision of the Great Crowd in play now…that is, that there is a present Great Crowd who will survive the great tribulation, who are currently serving in the earthly courtyard of the temple. They view the remnant of the 144000 as serving in the Holy Place, doing priestly duties, and their presence in the Holy representing the duties of spirit-begotten sons of god on earth who upon death and resurrection pass through the curtain (their flesh), and enter the Most Holy (heaven itself). They do not view the Great Crowd as sons of God until the 1000 years have ended, nor do they ever have priestly duties, rather they are the beneficiaries of the priesthood of the 144000.

    So if we take the Holy/Most Holy Temple interpretation as a given (that those rendering service in the Holy Place on earth are spirit-begotten sons of God and have Priestly duties and they pass into the Most Holy upon their resurrection), one can see the implications for the Great Crowd. They render priestly service on earth in the Holy Place (the Naos), as spirit-begotten sons of God. They therefore have a heavenly destiny in the Most Holy.

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    Perhaps Ethos can pick up the debate where Recovery left off...

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    bump

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