SBF,
You mentioned another thread about history. Not sure which one was meant, whether one of mine or started by someone else. Can you give me another clue? Have to rush off on some errands, but I'll see if I can find it.
Truly I say to you, Amen I say to you, Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech
by kepler 51 Replies latest watchtower bible
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PetrW
In my search for how the Bible understands the terms expressing "time", I also, of course, came across the problem in Luke 23:43: "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise" I found here, an older discussion
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/110063/commatology-101
and this discussion, which I freely continue:
These discussions were and still are very thought-provoking. But to me, there is a missing answer, to the question, why did Jesus even say, "today you will be with him in Paradise"?
The NWT and other translations that put a comma after "today" do resolve the supposed(!) conflict, but in doing so they also devalue - in my opinion - the statement of Jesus. The comma after "today", makes Jesus' statement a trite statement... that Jesus was communicating "today", everyone knew that. The comma after "today" brings no additional information = a redundant message. (The variant reading according to NA 28, I do not take into account, however, it is interesting that this statement was understood eschatologically in some manuscripts, i.e. the "day" of the second coming).
For if Jesus wanted to express that the robber would be with him in Paradise, he could have said to him, " Verily I say unto thee, you will be with me in Paradise," and he did not need to use the adverb "σημερον" = "today." And if Jesus had wanted to emphasize a time, then it would have been offered to say: "Verily I say unto thee, in these hours/In this hour shalt thou be with me in Paradise". But he didn't use that term either. If he wanted to emphasize an eschatological age, then he could have said, "Verily I say unto thee, in the last days//at the end of the ages thou shalt be with me in Paradise." But even that statement is not there.
On the other hand, even the translations that commonly put a comma before "today" don't bring much clarity to Jesus' statement. Not only do they have a problem with what the JWs claim (but in my opinion, it's an artificially induced conflict), but the above criticisms that Jesus could have used some more precise time than "today" persist. He could have emphasized the speed or postponed the event to the end of the ages.
And for the record, the papyrological monuments relating to business life used even then, more than 2000 years ago, the same thing everyone knows in email communication: it is not enough for business partners to write "today" we are sending you this or that. Because, there can easily be a misunderstanding. That is why it is already preserved on papyri that they attached to the term σημερον what day it was in their calendar (e.g. one papyrus has: "today, which is the 19th" or another: "today, which is the 8th"). Jesus did not say this either: " Verily I say unto thee, today, which is the 14th, you will be with me in Paradise."
Classical lexica for NT Greek, e.g. Kittel's Theological Dictionary or Bauer etc., while they provide ample information on the concept of σημερον itself, I would divide this concept into 2 groups: 1. the literal meaning, in the sense of "today", as a civil time period (Kittel's TLNT: "the Jewish understanding of time works with the fact that the day begins with the evening" and 2. the abstract, time length "today", which expresses rather the relationship of God to the chosen people.
The line between those meanings is not sharp: The Septuagint often uses the term "until today"/"until now" when it expresses some condition that had occurred earlier and was still ongoing at the time of the writing of the text, see, e.g., Gen. 19:37, "he became the forefather of the Moabites until now." Again, the papyri: a letter is preserved which records the statement that "the olive groves bear abundant fruit to this day". This 'disclosure', where 'today' almost takes on the value of 'now', is thus well attested.
Since Kittel's TLNT already refers to "now" (νυν), it is possible to consider another special statement of Jesus Christ. In Mark 13:19 he says that there will be days of tribulation which have not been since the beginning of creation...until now and will not be. At the time Jesus utters this, no tribulation was taking place, in fact, He directly speaks of those days yet to come. So why does he use "now"? Not to mention that we know that the tribulation didn't occur until about 40 years later. One possible explanation would be that Jesus' "now" refers to a period of time that is, as it were, in the background.
As if he were a "vehicle" for the "now". This is attested, for example, in Paul in 2 Cor. 6:2, where Paul speaks of the present time and the present day "νυν καιρος... νυν ημερα".
Returning then to σημερον, the typical representative in the abstract, very long time span (see also the meaning of the Hebrew "yom" = "day") is the longer passage in Heb 3:1-4:11. Here σημερον figures as "today", as an epoch-spanning, God-resting day. Which coincides with the "infinitely varying" meaning of the Hebrew "yom" and especially the length of the creation day.
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From this very brief description, two meanings suggest themselves to me: either Jesus meant the actual day (see e.g. Mk 14:30 : Verily I say unto thee, that thou, this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice") or some eschatological, timeless stretch.
While it's tempting to see some eschatological significance in Jesus' statement, and I'm not entirely giving it up, the closer context of Luke 23:43 and the parallel accounts suggest to me that Jesus was thinking of a literal day. I will explain.
First, a brief background. Jesus is nailed to the cross around 9am. He dies sometime around 3 pm. Gradually, through taunts, the robber learns about Jesus, that he healed, that he raised the dead, that he wanted to destroy the Temple, that he claimed to be the Son of God, that he claimed to be the Messiah, that he proclaimed a new age for the Jews, that he was proclaimed to be the King who had, somewhere, his kingdom... Before he dies, he already knows this, very much, and he begins to repent, he expresses that he fears God and blames it on the other thief... And then he turns to Jesus with a very specific request: Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.
The robber sees Jesus as the real King, his kingdom as real, not to mention that they both die on the cross. And so Jesus answers him: Verily I say unto thee, (as) today with me, (then) shalt thou be in Paradise.
Conclusion: so I understand "σημερον" = "today" in Luke 23:43 as expressing a shared experience, between Jesus and the thief, during those six hours or so. The phrase "μετ εμου" + the verb ειμι is found e.g. in Lk 15:31 but cf. also LXX 2 Sam 15:33! But as can be seen, the futurum ειμι in Lk 23:43 ("thou shalt"), when applied to σημερον, problematizes "today".
In my opinion, Jesus didn't want to make a promise that on that very day, the thief would be with him in Paradise, when he couldn't fulfill it (no matter how long he might still be dying), but he also didn't make the useless statement that he was telling him something "today" as the JWs understand the phrase. Nor, in my opinion, was he speaking of an eschatological "today", because according to John 9:4-5, Jesus' death ushers in an eschatological "twilight", late afternoon, corresponding also to the time when he physically dies. The light will still shine for a while in the form of Christians in the apostolic age, but before long, by the death of the last living apostle, John is already writing about the "last hour." Then comes the darkness, the age of Satan. The appointed times of darkness...
Jesus, in my opinion, was only emphasizing what they had experienced together for that day, and confirming to him that just as they were together that day, so together, they would also be in Paradise.