scientific method and truth ...

by soft+gentle 66 Replies latest jw friends

  • Twitch
    Twitch
    If Newton's rules fail at the micro level, are they real?

    They must be, we know about them because someone figured out the math ;)

    Has it failed though? In his time, what he discovered was far beyond what was known 500 years before his time. Is it unrealistic to think that 500 yrs after him that now we have knowledge that brings us out of his "dark ages"? What we now consider real is to Newton as what was real then to the dark ages. The fact we didn't know about it didn't make it any less real.

    Not much has changed since, we've just dug the rabbit hole a little deeper.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon
    If Newton's rules fail at the micro level, are they real?

    Has it failed though? In his time, what he discovered was far beyond what was known 500 years before his time. Is it unrealistic to think that 500 yrs after him that now we have knowledge that brings us out of his "dark ages"?

    The fact is, what we now consider real is to Newton as what was real then to the dark ages. The fact we didn't know about it didn't make it any less real.

    "Newton's laws" are IDEAS, AKA models of reality that exist inside the human mind in an attempt to explain and predict behaviors observed in the "real" World. His laws aren't "real", since ideas aren't physical "things". They are based on subjective perceptions that MAY be shared, and even accepted as a shared "reality", but whether that represents what they actually ARE is a philosophical debate well beyond the limits of this forum.

    Remember what a MODEL is:

    A representation of a system that allows for investigation of the properties of the system and, in some cases, prediction of future outcomes.

    A model is NOT the object it attempts to represent, hence ALL models have known and/or unknown flaws. If you forget that important caveat and limitation, you're going to be surprised when reality differs from that predicted by using the model.

    The SAME limitation is encountered when using parables/metaphors: the 'model' (parable) intended to convey greater understanding is NOT the concept it's intending to represent, so you have to be careful not to expect it to "line up" in EVERY detail.

    ALL models (whether theories or metaphors) break down, if they're used to compare elements that they weren't intended to replicate by the one who "built" the model. That especially applies to scientific theories, and that's exactly the reason WHY all theories are open to further refinement, or even replacement, as needed.

  • Twitch
    Twitch

    Well, we know that now...:)

    So, what is reality, if not the ideas that represent facts we think we know?

    Are the ideas less real than the uncertain facts they describe?

    Is an old model any less real than a new one?

    And now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

    "Newton's laws" are IDEAS, AKA models of reality that exist inside the human mind in an attempt to explain and predict behaviors observed in the "real" World. His laws aren't "real", since ideas aren't physical "things".

    Ideas aren't physical things, ok. However, his ideas were/are real enough. Thinking differently won't soften the fall.

    They are based on subjective perceptions that MAY be shared, and even accepted as a shared "reality", but whether that represents what they actually ARE is a philosophical debate well beyond the limits of this forum.

    Not subjective as per above. There is no doubt of their "shared reality", it's real enough for everyone and everything Newton's laws are a fact within the context of their application, classical physics at the macro level, applicable to all. The fact we have ideas that supercedes this now is expected.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Twitch asks:

    So, what is reality, if not the ideas that represent facts we think we know?

    As an applied (non-theoretical) science guy, I tend to be a pragmatist, and a bit bored by the philosophical questions like, "what is reality"? etc.

    As someone trained in the biological sciences, I know that animals likely perceive our World in ways that we cannot understand, ias t's so far beyond our senses. Homo sapiens are limited by our unique collection of sense organs and their capabilities, although we have devloped technology to allow us to extend our perceptual senses beyond our limited range.

    As one example, only recently has man learned about long-range communication that whales engage in over hundreds of kilometers via the SOFAR channel, basically a "long-distance chat-line" for humpback whales and other marine mammals. You couldn't "hear" this going on, if in the ocean, as it's such a low-frequency; we have to imagine what it would sound like, but even there: it's only guesswork. You need to be a 10-ton mammal to "know".

    Insect and bird eyes are tuned to vision in ranges we cannot naturally see, and while we can study and speculate about their perception, we cannot KNOW what that reality is no more than I can positively know what YOUR reality is.

    Even human to human, we know that all humans perceive colors slightly differently (aside from the obvious protanopia/deutanopia forms of color vision defects), and some people even see colors very differently between their two eyes! Instead of color perception being a common perception, there's in fact significantly more variation in a human population than most people think about.

    Point is, we ALL perceive reality quite differently, but you and I AGREE that whatever the color of THAT object over there may actually be (i.e. in terms of it's wavelength, as measured with a spectrophotometer), we agree to call that perception "red" (and protans are unable play the game: it looks black to them, although depending on the degree of their being affected, it also varies).

    Are the ideas less real than the uncertain things they describe?

    They are all uncertain, in the sense that the "reality" of an object's properties is dependent on what organism is detecting/perceiving them... A grain of sugar presents a different perception to an ant than it does to a human. Who's perception is correct, i.e. the "reality"? Reality is species-specific; hence humanoid "reality" not universal.

    It goes back to the story of three blind men who encounter an elephant, and one touches the trunk and concludes it's a snake; another touches a leg and concludes it's a wall, etc.

    Is an old model any less real than a new one?

    Old models are refined to improve their predictive capabilities, but they ALWAYS remain models. It MAY be a more accurate representation, but they are always still models.

    As the discriminating capabilities often lag then modelling capabilities, models (replicas) get harder to detect (think of counterfeit bills).

  • talesin
    talesin

    Doubt everything, including this.

    mmm. hmmm

    Science is only as good as the latest discovery.

  • talesin
    talesin

    However, "In Math, We Trust"

    :P

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    And this is where the apologist smells weakness. The evangelist has certainty in his worldview, wereas the one trusting in the scientific method cannot. The next argument from the apologist is if the scientist cannot be certain, they cannot dismiss the idea that our firmament is kept spinning by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    From the inquirer's point of view, however, scientific models approximate reality in ever greater refinement, whereas the faith induced confidence is baseless.

    (jgnat wearing the devil's advocate hat)

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