I hear ya George.
You Can't Live Forever in Paradise on Earth
by smmcroberts 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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flipper
" You Can't Live Forever in Paradise on Earth " . Precisely correct. It's a false illusion designed to keep JW's hooked into a marketing scheme to swindle their money and time away from them by a Real Estate company masquerading as a religion
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moshe
JWs just have a hard time letting go of their eternal life in paradise Earth WT dogma- Hey, I can cheat death, because JWs are the only true religion!!
Not enough time is spent helping JWs overcome this false notion- and it is the keystone dogma that keeps JWs trapped in their KH!
Thank you for a very good effort- now it is up to the JWs to act next-- once they know there will be no big jackpot coming, they should be able to walk away from the KH.
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King Solomon
The ability of Xians to use their "get out of a tight spot" card, AKA "God Did It!" is why I generally avoid the science-based arguments where miracles can be imployed.
It's better to focus on those type of inconsistencies pointed out with their theory (eg forever Earth) vs scriptures in the Bible ("the Earth shall pass away"). That doesn't always do it though, as they pull up another unrecorded miracle ("God will make a spaceship for us so we can move to a new Planet").
I find it even more satisfying to focus on basic illogic and scientific ignorance found in the Bible, eg the firmament as depicted in the Flood and Job, or even the ignorance of basic human anatomy that YHWH shows in Gen 3:15 referring to "evil thoughts found in the hearts of men".
(That is no figure of speech: I've written other threads about the ancient misbelief that humans thought with their HEARTS, and not their brain. It's well-documented in other secular sources that this WAS the belief in the ANE, up until approx 300BC, and it didn't become common knowledge in non-educated circles until MUCH later).
Obviously, you'd expect the "Intelligent Designer" to understand the basic roles of his own "design" (with the human brain being God's crowning achievement of creation: odd that it's not mentioned ANYWHERE in the Bible?). If a claimant to being the designer doesn't understand the basic elements of their own creation, they are NOT the designer.
Unfortunately, there is no idea harder to accept as one people don't WANT to be true. So they will hang on to their wishes and fantasies, even surround themselves with a group of others who believe the same, as if reality is a popularity poll that depends on what people want it to be....
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cedars
As others have noted, there's some nice reasoning in this article.
I like this point...
According to the Bible Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong when they sinned (not knowing good from evil until they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil). Yet we are told that God did not forgive them, but demanded the ultimate penalty three times over.
Cedars
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King Solomon
Yeah, Cedars, the premise of the original sin is so flawed, it raises more questions than it answers.
Adam and Eve were only built as 'perfect', if the definition of 'perfect' includes their being made as "perfect fools"!
BTW, The Bible uses 'foolish' as the antonym of 'wise', hence the implication is they were created as fools. Eve saw the fruit as "desirable to gain wisdom", which implies she was made lacking in wisdom (or else she wouldn't have been tempted to eat it; it wasn't like they didn't have other food to eat, and the ONLY difference with the forbidden fruit was that it offered wisdom).
So, what do fools do? Amongst other things, they make foolish decisions, like breaking rules and not considering the harmful consequences of their actions! So humanity is cursed with death because God made a pair of fools... Nice, huh?
Further, there's the problematic issue of God's wisdom by placing the forbidden fruit where they could eat it! God apparently had the technological capability to protect his cherished fruit (see picture of Cherub with flaming sword), and even the omniscience to see future events; He also cannot disavow a responsibility to exercie reasonable custodianship by NOT leaving dangerous substances where fools are tempted to eat it (heck, even vitamins use child-proof caps these days, showing more responsibile custodianship than YHWH).
So again, the story makes no bog sense, if it's analyzed in a logical manner, where "God Did It!" is not a defense: the fact is, God Did NOT do any such miracles (i.e. take certain reasonable preventative actions), when logically He should've....
Of course, the account is made-up, and was written as another attempt at theodicy, as an attempt to how we got to where we are today. But even there, it's a failed story (much as the Story of Job fails, as discussed by Leo the other day, wherein multiple redactors attempt to address as what they see as wholes, but only make things worse by attempting to fix them). And why am I thinking of THIS thread, where an elderly woman learns the hard way that the road to Hell is paved by those with good intentions?
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Cold Steel
Not only does human life depend on the Sun, it also depends on the Moon. It's the Moon that holds the Earth in a stable orbit. That said, the law of entropy is a tough hurdle for JWs. I'm not a JW myself, but Jesus declared that the Earth would be the home of the righteous for eternity; however, He did not promise that the Earth would be restored to its paradisaical state. Who, for example, would want to live on a world full of plants and trees for eternity? Not moi? What does "Jehovah" want us to do during that time? After all, after the fourth family reunion, and after we've mastered every musical instrument and learned to paint, what purpose will there be to life?
God does live by eternal laws, but some are temporal and others eternal. Jesus hoped the Father would remove the "bitter cup," but He submitted to the will of the Father, who lives by certain immutable eternal laws that even He cannot violate. The Atonement depended on the Father's abandonment and the death of His Son. Why? Because our sins would have placed us beyond salvation and would have resulted in the Father's abandonment of us. Thus, Jesus knew the price of our salvation and was willing to pay for it.
In an early non-canonical writing, we see it in context: “And He (the Father) heaved sighs over him, saying, ‘If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him.’ And My Father said unto Me, ‘If I put breath into him, My beloved Son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to his primal state.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfill Thy command.’” (Discourse on Abbaton, folios 11b-12a)
In this remarkable document, the price would be high: “…their sins which will bend thee down under a yoke of iron and make thee like a calf whose eyes grow dim with suffering, and will choke thy spirit as with a yoke; because of the sins of these souls thy tongue will cleave to the roof of my mouth.”
Nevertheless, the preexistant Lord agreed.
The Redemption also shall cover the Earth and make it Eternal. It most likely will not remain in its present orbit in this part of the galaxy. We don't yet know where this Earth will reside, but it undoubtedly will not be in the temporal universe. And it also undoubtedly will not exist as a paradise of dirt and rocks, but will be glorified, even as its inhabitants will be glorified -- and it will not be governed by a temporal sun that will one day burn out, but will be transported to an Eternal abode where it will be joined to other Eternal worlds.
Some Christians believe the rest of the Universe was created only to light up the Earth's nighttime sky, but this makes no sense. And many non-Christians believe the Earth will one day be destroyed as the solar system begins to wind down. But I believe God made provisions to save the Earth and Redeem it. I also believe we're destined for a greater future than existing eternally in some Garden of Eden as depicted by the JWs in their publications. If they're right, then I don't want to be resurrected. Count me out! -