by mP 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
* Abraham had hundreds of slaves and was even important enough for Pharoah to grant him an audience.
* David, short stint at sheep herding then king!
* Moses was a prince
* Job had lots of kids, servants(slaves???) etc.
Was the OT the first Hollywood, where every fool drives a Ferrari and lives in a mansion ?
Because they're fictional archetypes.
It's no different today . . . same story different people.
One theological response to this fact:
'Cause it's the Old Testament.
* Abraham had hundreds of slaves and was even important enough for Pharoah to grant him an audience.
Yeah and the Pharoah almost took his wife. Abraham's brother, Lot, wasn't wealthy.
* David, short stint at sheep herding then king!
Because he was foreordained to be King. He also sinned and lost his exaltation.
* Moses was a prince
But he was born a slave. He, too, was foreordained to be a prophet. He also lost his post as prince and became first a criminal, then a sheepherder, then a prophet. He led the Israelites around the most barren desert in the Old World for 40 years and didn't even get to lead the people into the Promised Land. Not exactly a hotshot with a Ferrari!
* Job had lots of kids, servants (slaves???) etc.
Ummm...yeah. Would you like to swap places with him?
And how about all the poor prophets and characters? How about Noah, Elijah, Elisha, Balaam, Daniel, Jeremiah, Samson, Isaiah, and Zechariah? None of these was wealthy. On any given day any of these most likely could have used a shower. Joseph, who was sold into Egypt, was exalted over his brethren, but none of them was weathy. When the famine hit, Jacob had to send his sons to Egypt to petition food. Jacob had some wives and some goats, but he wasn't particularly wealthy. In fact, people who are born today in homes that would be classified as in poverty were more wealthy than any of them, even King David. David had gold and power, but he didn't have cable TV, and he didn't have air conditioning, heating, a stereo, a computer or a car (most found in even "poor" homes).
In fact, most OT figures were actually quite poor.
You just don't know the OT!
Yeah I wouldnt trade places with Job. Who would want to be a bet between God and Satan. Some friend God was to Job!
Mythology doesnt work well if you dont have a cool story. Slave to prince, or rich then poor then rich. They are standard formats for telling an exciting story.
People who were said to be closer to god ( high priests, seers) were always elevated in stature with power and wealth.
God always likes a good business mind set with his chosen ones.
You can use the GB of the WTS. as a perfect example in the way those men were set upon seeking power and wealth.
mP:
* Abraham had hundreds of slaves and was even important enough for Pharoah to grant him an audience.
Cold:
Yeah and the Pharoah almost took his wife. Abraham's brother, Lot, wasn't wealthy.
mP->Cold:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/ge/chapter_013.htm
Following that A´bram went up out of Egypt, he and his wife and all that he had, and Lot with him, to the Neg´eb. And A´bram was heavily stocked with herds and silver and gold.
...
Now Lot, who was going along with A´bram, also owned sheep and cattle and tents. So the land did not allow for them to dwell all together, because their goods had become many and they were not able to dwell all together. And a quarrel arose between the herders of A´bram’s livestock and the herders of Lot’s livestock; and at that time the Ca´naan·ite and the Per´iz·zite were dwelling in the land.
Abraham and Lot were both so wealthy they had to devide an entire country side between them. The text implies considerable wealth and like many rich men they were greedy and couldnt share or coexist.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/ge/chapter_014.htm
Thus A´bram got to hear that his brother had been taken captive. With that he mustered his trained men, three hundred and eighteen slaves born in his household, and went in pursuit up to Dan. And by night he resorted to dividing his forces, he and his slaves, against them, and thus he defeated them and kept in pursuit of them up to Ho´bah, which is north of Damascus. And he proceeded to recover all the goods, and he recovered also Lot his brother and his goods and also the women and the people.
Sound slike Lot and Abraham are pretty wealthy, 318 slaves for A and many for Lot. Hardly humble.
MP: David, short stint at sheep herding then king!
Cold: Because he was foreordained to be King. He also sinned and lost his exaltation.
MP -> Cold:
Where does the Bible say David was destined to be King ? Even if he was (i await the scripture) does that mean david and kill and take from anyone with impunity. I know your going to bringin up the death of Bethsehebas son, so i wil preempt this and say child mortality. A lot
Where does it say in the Bible David was destined to be king ? Does being God chosen one, mean you can kill anyone just becaue you want too ?
I know your going to say God punished him by killing Bethsebas son, but thats totally false. Child mortality in those days was a real problem. Many of our ancestors also lost children and im sure its safe to say they were not murdering barstards nor were they punished by Jehovah. Unfortunately life was tough in those days without modern medicine and other benefits of our modern soecity.
MP: Moses was a prince
Cold: But he was born a slave. He, too, was foreordained to be a prophet. He also lost his post as prince and became first a criminal, then a sheepherder, then a prophet. He led the Israelites around the most barren desert in the Old World for 40 years and didn't even get to lead the people into the Promised Land. Not exactly a hotshot with a Ferrari!
MP:
While you are correct Moses was born a slave but he never worked a day in his life nor experienced the other cruelties inflicted on slaves when they are children or working adults. Even after his life as the leader of the Jews he like all leaders always had the best. The scriptures even show he had time to go after foriegn women, which must have been hard given he like the other travelleers were in the desert.
If you read the text the jews spent most of their time in fact many years in an oasis. Intersting archeologists have been there and cant find any evidence of 3 million people living there for decades.
MP: Job had lots of kids, servants (slaves???) etc.
Cold: Ummm...yeah. Would you like to swap places with him?
MP: I never said i wanted to trade places with anyone, if you are implying im wrong then at least be fair and stick to the limits of the question.
Since women in those days had no rights and were essentially property for breeding purposes, her feelings dont count. Remember a virgin who got raped had to marry the rapist.
COLD:
And how about all the poor prophets and characters? How about Noah, Elijah, Elisha, Balaam, Daniel, Jeremiah, Samson, Isaiah, and Zechariah? None of these was wealthy. On any given day any of these most likely could have used a shower.
MP:
Noah must have been reasonably rich, how else does someone manage to build such a large ark if they are poor ?
Elijah, Elisha and the others you mention were almost always talking the King of Judea or Israel. Again hardly the actions of a nobody. The fact they have regular audiences with the King or Queen implies they were big shots. Today we see the same, regular citizens find it very difficult to associate with political leaders, while big business men and so on dont have these challenges.
Anyway the Bible never states much about their personal lives. However if im wrong show me the scriptures.
COLD:
Joseph, who was sold into Egypt, was exalted over his brethren, but none of them was weathy. When the famine hit, Jacob had to send his sons to Egypt to petition food.
mP:
So the 2nd in the land after the Pharoah is poor, sure. Your statement is plain dumb.
Jacob was rich he had lots of slaves, how exaclty does a poor man manage to have so many wifes and kids and slaves ? How does a poor man manage to give his son such a fancy coat ?
BTW I dont think anyone would categorise Jospehs brothers are heros of the Bible, if you want to show them to be poor i will be happy to show the opposite.
Jacob had some wives and some goats, but he wasn't particularly wealthy. In fact, people who are born today in homes that would be classified as in poverty were more wealthy than any of them, even King David. David had gold and power, but he didn't have cable TV, and he didn't have air conditioning, heating, a stereo, a computer or a car (most found in even "poor" homes).
COLD:
In fact, most OT figures were actually quite poor.
mP: I call bullshit. Please show me where it says some hero was poor, scriptures.
COLD:
You just don't know the OT!
Feel free to correct any of my above ramblings with sctiptures...otehrwise YOU dont know the OT.
I have shown many of the characters we both mentioned are definitely anything but humble. Some of the later names require proofs they were humble and poor. Religious nuts sure, poor show me.
How about Noah? None of these was wealthy.
Really? How did he and his family afford to take 50 years off to build an Ark (presumably they didn't build it only on weekends), undertaking a construction project that surely was the most challenging attempted to their date? Who provided their food? And the tools, raw materials, etc, weren't donated, i.e. someone had to trade something for it, in a time when men were nomadic hunter-gatherers....
The arkencounter.com has a blog where someone (OK, it was me) asked the same question, noting the irony of how they are trying to raise $25 million in donated funds to build a life-size (but non-functional, i.e. non-floating) replica of the ark.
Oh, I already know the answer: God Did It™. God provided for it....
It was a miracle: this unknown genus of wood called "gopherwood" formed into planks that were pre-treated with Thompson's Water Seal to prevent water-logging, and marched to the construction site to self-assemble into the shape of the ark.
Heck, if the animals can be directed by angels to migrate to the ark, why cannot the wood, too?
