The Resurrection - Gender-less Humans or Spirit Beings?

by Badfish 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Jeffro
    The Resurrection - Gender-less Humans or Spirit Beings?


  • Jeffro

    The Golden Age (of Delusional Fantasies), April 2, 1930, p.446 (from scan provided by TimeBandit):

    There have been some well authenticated instances in which women have been transformed into men

    Were these transgendered people summarily disfellowshipped??

  • earthfire

    I never got the whole sexless angels being so horny that they leave heaven to mate with women either. I remember being a kid and looking at the pic in My Book of Bible Stories and getting mad. Why do they get to come down an trick humans? Why are they only after the women? Why the hell do they get to live with women for soooo many years as to raise children "Nephilim" into adult hood and THEN after all this Jehovah notices and says now I'm going to bring a great flood and destroy all the wicked humans. Meanwhile the angels get to escape and go back to spirit form while the humans who were tricked have to die.

    So since it worked out so well the first time when the angels tricked us, now they are banished to Earth and we are stuck with them and they are ALLOWED to keep messing with our lives and we are none the wiser. But if we want to draw close to God then we have to always be on high alert because Satan and his angels are always trying to get people, especially JW's who are the chosen. Be like Job! Uggh!

  • Glander

    They will be known as the Ken and Barbie class.


    Re: The Resurrection - Gender-less Humans or Spirit Beings?

    This has always been grey area for Jehovah's Witnesses in the UK. In the USA it is apparently a gray area.

    It is of no concern to me, as I shall not be coming back. I shall have my ashes dumped in the garden of my local real-ale house and then rest in peace. Bet ya can’t wait!

  • maisha

    Which wel documented instances were women changed into men?

    Sex parties?, surgery?.

    I always though men were changed into women,,,

    maybe i am out of touch,, grin,..

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Earthfire said:

    "Nephilim" into adult hood and THEN after all this Jehovah notices and says now I'm going to bring a great flood and destroy all the wicked humans. Meanwhile the angels get to escape and go back to spirit form while the humans who were tricked have to die.

    Even though the Flood account doesn't explicitly state it as the reason offered by God for the Flood, many JWs will say how YHWH had to wipe out the nephilim to counteract Satan's dastardly plot to corrupt the Adamic bloodline that produced Jesus.

    Of course, the Genesis account also mentions that these giants ("the famous men of old") existed both before AND after the Flood, so apparently God forgot to patch the security flaw that allowed angels to mix angelic DNA with humans (and no doubt YHWH had his eye on getting busy one day, getting sum with a certain virgin named Mary, wink, wink, nudge, nudge....).

    So once again, the rationalizations and excuses make no bog sense; the story, even as a fairy tale, has so many continuity errors as to be even be unbelievable science fiction....

  • Bobcat

    I have two things. First a question and then a comment.

    The question:

    The arguments about whether the events in Gen chap.6 really happened aside, and assuming that the "sons of the true God" were angels and the "Nephilim" were their hybrid offspring - Where does the idea come from that these angels materialized human bodies and lived like men? And then, of course, the flood would have forced them to return to their original spirit selves.

    For several years I have tried to figure out how the Society came up with that aspect of the story.

    Jude 6 says they "did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place."

    Peter says they "had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah's days" (1 Pet 3:20) and "sinned" (2 Pet 2:4).

    Genesis 6:2, 4 says "the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose ... the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men."

    Of course, they had to do it in some way. But these verses are the only ones I know of that describe those events and they fall short of saying anything about where they lived or how they accomplished their deeds or what type of bodies they assumed. Yet the Society describes it and illustrates it as if it was beyond questioning.

    That is my question, but what follows is what I've considered as impacting my viewpoint so far.

    "Wives" in Gen 6:2 is simply a translator's choice. "Wives" could just as rightly be translated "women" or "females." I have a problem with "wives" because Jude 7 describes the people of Sodom as having "committed fornication" like these angels. If the women of these angels were really their "wives," could the angels be described as 'committing fornication' with them?

    Another problem I have with the idea of the angels living as men is that Genesis 6:4 says, "the Neph′i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men." The verse isn't conclusive, but the statement about 'the Nephilim being in the earth in those days' would seem like 'less-than headline news' if superhuman angels were living there too.

    "Have relations" in Genesis 6:4 is interesting also. The KJV is more literal, saying "came in unto." (ESV has "came in to") I've read that this might have the idea of an invasion, with the possible idea of rape or something like that. Maybe I'm mistaken, but somehow I've acquired the idea that in those times it was more customary for the women and men of a family to live in seperate quarters and for the man to bring his wife or concubine to his quarters for relations. That is why the word used for "have relations," or more literally "come into" suggests to me that these angels did not live like married men.

    The final problem I have with the angels living as men is one of logic. If they are capable of changing form/ materializing at will, why give up a spirit body for one that has to go to the bathroom, eat, sleep, travel at much less than light speed, use doors, etc. Why not just materialize - if they need to do that - make love, and then go back to the spirit realm? (The best of both worlds, as it were.)

    At any rate, that is the extent of my research on the matter, and since this was part of the (extended) topic, I was curious to see if there was any more opinions or info that could be added or used to correct.

    Since the question turned out to be so long, I'll save my comment for later. It was about the phrase "marry and being given in marriage."

    Thanks and Take care

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    This question is #2 on my list of reasons why I left the damned cult. [#1 being, as most on-board know by now, Exodus 19: 16-19 which clearly describes a volcanic eruption, and just as clearly shows that neither the Israelites NOR THEIR GOD knew what the heck it was...]

    There are many good reasons for leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but your point in Exodus is not valid. Although controversy exists, in my view the most valid candidate for Sinai is Jebal al-Lawz, in Saudi Arabia; however, none of the candidates I know of is a volcano. Certainly, if Mount Sinai was a volcano, it would have been extremely foolhardy of Moses to have ascended the mount. The Exodus account states: “And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.”

    The very gases that propel magma to the surface also expel oxygen, extinguishing lit fires in the process. Moses and anyone else foolhardy enough to go up to the top of an active volcano would certainly suffocate. Verse 21 states: “ And the Lord said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish. ” Thus there was a danger, as expressed by the Lord, but Moses went to the top of the mountain for many days and conversed with the Lord “face to face.” (See Exodus 33.) Later, seventy elders of Israel, along with Aaron and Joshua, were permitted to climb partly up the mount and there they saw the Lord (Chapter 24). One commentator spoke of the uniqueness of this story: “The God who cannot be seen, is seen, not only by Moses, along with Joshua, his servant, but by Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, the priests, and also by seventy of the elders of Israel. The description of God is one that we would not have expected to find in the Old Testament. In addition to seeing God, the nobles of the nation Israel also sat and ate a meal in His presence. If nothing else would motivate us to study this text, our curiosity could inspire us.” These witnesses also were able to confirm that which Moses had told them. In fact, Moses wanted the entire encampment to see the Lord, but the people were frightened and refused, preferring to defer to Moses.

    Yes, there are contradictions in the Bible and I’ve never bought into the doctrine that no man has seen God, as the scriptures clearly said that God spoke to Moses “face to face” (as mentioned above).

    Pertaining to the resurrection, the scriptures made it clear that all men will be resurrected with the same resurrection that Jesus had. This is a resurrection of the physical body, and not a hair will be lost. It will not be a physical body of flesh and blood, but of flesh and spirit. Blood is the life, but it’s also the corruption. There will not be dual resurrections of spirit for some and bodies for others. All will receive their bodies just as they laid them down. After that, they will be able to appear as they wish. Regarding sexual function, nothing is recorded in the scriptures. Certainly, though, men and women will retain their gender. Adam and Eve were married while they were still immortal, and it’s clear that there will be no marriage “in the resurrection.” Whether this means they must be joined before their resurrection is unclear, but it makes little sense that men and women will be resurrected with all their parts intact, but inoperable. Still, it remains to be seen. People can be physical and spiritual at the same time. Jesus appeared with His body, and He was able to walk through walls and transport Himself via great distances. What JWs don’t realize is that the resurrection is the permanent joining of the body and the spirit. They mistakenly believe that people “sleep” at death and point to that tired passage in Ecclesiastes, which is a philosophical book, not an eschatological one. There’s no doubt that the early Christians not only believed men had spirits, but some first century Christian writers also believed we existed before we came to this earth. Many people who have had near death experiences relate seeing people they knew before they were born. Anyway, all men (male and female) will be resurrected the same. There are no “heavenly” and “earthly” classes.

  • tec

    Spirit Beings as I understand, but I only understand in part.

    There are two realms... the spiritual and the physical. The kingdom (spiritual) and outside the kingdom (physical). The garden of eden (a spiritual place)... and outside the garden (a physical place)

    We are also two ... things. The spiritual and the physical.

    Spiritual beings (like angels) can move between and access both realms.

    We are spiritual beings... but unlike angels... we are currently trapped within these vessels, and so cannot move between both. (These vessels act as a shield for our spirit, taking death into the flesh, so that it does not have to enter the spirit) But we are only trapped until such a time as Christ returns and we are changed... and free. Both those who belong to Him (his brothers) will be changed... as well as the sheep who belong to Him (but might not know it)... so that they can also enter the Kingdom (spiritual) prepared for them since the beginning of the world.

    Hard to explain when we do not yet have the understanding in scientific terms... yet. But there is so much we do not yet know about the universe/world around us.



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