This topic is for Christians......

by Phizzy 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    The very first followers of Jesus were drawn to him no doubt for a variety of reasons, but stayed mainly because they had taken on board the faith that he held.

    They witnessed him and his faith in action, so they came to believe as he did.

    Long after his death, and the death of most, if not all, of those that knew him, this gradually transformed from holding the same faith as him, to having a belief in him. This resulted in claims for his divinity etc

    My question to you is, is it not more important that you hold the same faith as he did, rather than the much vaunted belief in him, because you cannot be "in union" with him if your faith differs from his, surely ?

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    As may become apparent if it isnt already, people believe whatever they want to believe in, and often no amount of logic and reason can be sufficient for them to change their minds over a faith that in the end comes down to preference to believe rather than anything to do with a belief due to truth.

    You have made assertions, they will make assertions, often invoking magic and miracles mind you to make their point. So the warm fuzzies of faith is enough for some but not sufficient for others who seek deeper basis for Truth.

    I know for myself when I was making the deepest study of my JW life into the bible during my exit, reading it through several times, discovering the origins and background the historicity (or lack of) of it etc then it became clear the bible actually has little directly from the man Jesus, it is mostly 2nd 3rd hand with spin and guesswork on the part of his followers. It certainly became apparent the WTS is wrong on many scores and were shown up as the controlling guilt and fear cult that they are, but so did the vast disconnect between the angry killing God of the OT and this new proposition made by Jesus.

    In other words it is not simple and clear, nor is it even consistent. The deal breaker for me is the bible accounts that Jesus claimed to believe in have been totally debunked, therefore he could not possibly be anything than just another wishful thinker.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Question - if Jesus really was the son of God (or God personified) - and he KNEW it, how could he be said to have had "faith"?

    It isn't "faith", really, if you know something to be true by actual experience...

  • Messerschmitt
    Messerschmitt

    The deal breaker for me is the bible accounts that Jesus claimed to believe in have been totally debunked, therefore he could not possibly be anything than just another wishful thinker.

    Where in the bible do you base this from?...Could you give me the account in the Bible?

    Phizzy, Faith and Belief are two completely different things. Somone can believe in Jesus and his existance etc, but he may not have faith in Christ as being their Savior.

    I think that james is right here. Christ didn't need faith, why would Jesus need faith?

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    Here u go:

    (Luke 17:22-30) 22 Then he said to the disciples: "Days will come when YOU will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man but YOU will not see [it]. 23 And people will say to YOU, ‘See there!' or, ‘See here!' Do not go out or chase after [them]. 24 For even as the lightning, by its flashing, shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven, so the Son of man will be. 25 First, however, he must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation. 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot came out of Sod′om it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed.

    (Matthew 24:36-42) 36 "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.

  • mindseye
    mindseye

    james woods wrote: if Jesus really was the son of God (or God personified) - and he KNEW it, how could he be said to have had "faith"?

    It isn't "faith", really, if you know something to be true by actual experience...

    Right on. Jesus' spirituality was based on knowledge that he was God, not faith. The idea that we are all God is found in the Hindu Upanishads. I think that Jesus realized this through a mystic experience, but expressed it through the monotheistic theology of his culture.

    Phizzy wrote: My question to you is, is it not more important that you hold the same faith as he did, rather than the much vaunted belief in him, because you cannot be "in union" with him if your faith differs from his, surely ?

    I think a better word than faith is gnosis, or 'spiritual knowledge.' There were early Christians we now call gnostics, who wanted to share the Jesus 'experience.' As you say, this was "in union" with him instead of mere faith.

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    My question to you is, is it not more important that you hold the same faith as he did, rather than the much vaunted belief in him, because you cannot be "in union" with him if your faith differs from his, surely ?

    Yes, that's why I study and practice religions that I believe Jesus was studied up on like Confucianism and Buddhism. The Jesus that is portrayed today is very far off from what the orginal was.

    -Sab

  • James Brown
    James Brown

    The faith Jesus had was that he was from God the father and he and God the father were one.

    John 5:24 says "anyone who listens to my message and believes in God who sent me has eternal

    life, wnd will never be damned for his sin, but has already passed out of death into life." Life Application

    Bible.

    Its the best deal in town

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Thanks all for your answers. I had to rush out after I posted this, I didn't realise what the time was here in the U.K.

    I think Sab has really got closest to what I was trying to say, we do not know what Jesus said or thought of course, the Gospels and Pauls writiings all being some remove from the "historical" Jesus, but I think if you realy wish to be his follower it is more important that you feel as he felt, act as he acted, and believe whatever he believed than it is to construct a new demi-god, or claim as the later church did, that Jesus is Almighty God.

    The late theology is possibly very off the mark, but to try to be like the figure who comes through the writings, without the later doctrine and theories, in other words, to truly live by the Golden Rule, is surely more important than the empty profession of faith in him as your saviour.

    (empty if it is just words)

    If you try to be Jesus yourself, surely that is enough, your eternal life must be assured if you are worried about such a thing.

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    , the Gospels and Pauls writiings all being some remove from the "historical" Jesus,

    Phizzy with out the Gospels what do you know about Jesus?

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