My thoughts on the flood

by Sargon 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Sargon

  I know that the flood has been discussed ad-nauseum on this site, but I only just got a copy of the March 1, 2002 WT and figured i'd put my
  2cents worth in. Besides that with this posting i become a senior member so i thought i'd say something semi-intelligent for a change.

  The WT with it's ever circular reasoning concludes that because so many societies have a flood myth, and because they all have many points in common, that this corroborates the Bibles ancient testimony.
  On page 4 of this WT, there is a chart denoting the similarities of many of these myths. It is interesting to note that they have omitted the Sumerian flood myth in this chart(unless of course that is what they have listed as the Assyrian myth). The Sumerian account predates the Genesis account by nearly 1000 years. Using the same circular reasoning that th WT employs, I can claim that since all the other flood myths corroborate the facts included in the Sumerian myth, this makes the Sumerian tablets the cheif ource of this ancient wisom. All hail the Gods of Sumer.
  The Sumerian tablets are included in the Epic of Gilgamesh(available on line and in many bookshops). These tablets recount the adventures of Gilgamesh, king of Uruk in Mesopotamia around 2000BC. Included in gilgamesh's tale is the story of the flood. The central character in this flood myth was Ziusudra (means he saw life), and many parts of this tale are included in the Genesis account. The most obvious case of plagiarism with the Genesis account is the sending of the dove.
  Here is an interesting site:
  http://www.flood-myth.com/
  One of the most interesting parts of this web site is the part How old was Noah. In here they claim that where the bible gets these ridiculous ages for these biblical people is due to an error in translation. He gos on to tell you what the error is and backtraces to find a more beleivable age for Noah, seth and methuselah. I've always found the WT explanation that they lived such long lives because they were closer to the perfect vitality of Adam, to be absolute hogwash. 'When you mix science and religion, you end up with a hybrid that is neither good science nor good religion.' Karen Armstrong.
  These are some of my thoughts on the subject. Time to get another beer all this typing has made me tired.
  "Imagination is more important than Knowledge" Albert Einstein

  
  They faught like warrior poets...and gained their freedom.
• 

  cellomould

  Here's a hint on the translation errors for the ages of Methuselah et al: divide by 12!

  Not at all a coincidence.

  cellomould

  

  "In other words, your God is the warden of a prison where the only prisoner is your God." Jose Saramago, The Gospel According to Jesus Christ
• 

  patio34

  Hi Sargon, Thanks for the treatise on the Wt and the flood. I've often thought about the Sumerians. They have similarities of a Garden of Eden, a snake, a rib, etc. And they were the first civilization to develop writing.

  Cellumoid, please spare me the trouble of looking up Methusaleh's age and tell me the clue. Please?

  

  WTBS: Quit peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining.
• 

  aChristian

  Cello,

  You wrote: Here's a hint on the translation errors for the ages of Methuselah et al: divide by 12!

  Genesis 5:6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father of Enosh. (105 divided by 12 = 8.75)

  Genesis 5:9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan. (90 divided by 12 = 7.5)

  Genesis 5:12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel. (70 divided by 12 = 5.83)

  Genesis 5:15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared. (65 divided by 12 = 5.41)

  Genesis 5:21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. (65 divided by 12 = 5.41)

  Genesis 11:12 When Arphaxad had lived 35 years, he became the father of Shelah. (35 divided by 12 = 2.91)

  Genesis 11:14 When Shelah had lived 30 years, he became the father of Eber. (30 divided by 12 = 2.5)

  Genesis 11:16 When Eber had lived 34 years, he became the father of Peleg. (34 divided by 12 = 2.83)

  Genesis 11:18 When Peleg had lived 30 years, he became the father of Reu. (30 divided by 12 = 2.5)

  Need I go on? OK

  ... When Reu had lived 32 years, he became the father of Serug. ... When Serug had lived 30 years, he became the father of Nahor. ...When Nahor had lived 29 years, he became the father of Terah.

  I think you get the point. Your "divide by 12" theory does not work. For though the Bible says all of these men lived for hundreds of years, it also says they began fathering children at ordinary ages. So for your "years were really months" theory to be true there must have been a lot of two and three year olds fathering children.
• 

  refiners fire

  A Christian.
  No.No.
  The ages listed as the ages they fathered sons are LITERAL years.
  The Ages listed as the span of their life are FIGURATIVE years to be divided by 12, the number of months in the year.
  Clear?
• 

  Will Power

  Hey sargon
  Excellent points
  Karen Armstrong was interviewed tonight on pbs. Very english with the teeth to match. Her opinions sure make a lot of sense. Not yet finished reading "A" History of God (not THE history) hahaha . Highly recommended.

  Someone here is doing a project on George Orwell's Animal Farm. Cool.
• 

  aChristian

  Refinersfire,

  Yes, what you say is clear. But it still makes no sense.

  You say that the word used in these passages for "year" actually meant "month" when it was used to describe the total number of years a person lived, but that it did in fact mean "year" when it was used to describe other time periods, like how many units of time a man lived before becoming a father. Why do I say this makes no sense? Because, though some of the men whom Genesis chapters 5 and 11 tell us lived very long lives are said to have become fathers at very ordinary ages, making the "divide by 12" theory unworkable, others there listed are said to have become fathers at very great ages. For instance, Genesis chapters 5 and 11 tell us that Adam was 130 years old when he became father to Seth, Seth was 105 years old when he became father to Enosh, Jared was 162 years old when he became father to Enoch, Methuselah was 187 years old when he became father to Lamech, Lamech was 182 years old when he became father to Noah, and Noah had three sons after he was 500 years old.

  As I have already shown, Cello's "a year meant a month" theory is totally inconsistent with some of these passages' context. And your "The ages listed as the ages they fathered sons are LITERAL years" statement makes no sense if you believe these men could not have lived as long as the Bible says they did. Why? Because it is often no easier to believe the great ages which Genesis tells us some of these men fathered children at, than it is to believe the great ages which Genesis also tells us of all of these men died at.
• 

  aChristian

  You wrote: The Sumerian account predates the Genesis account by nearly 1000 years. ...
  The Sumerian tablets are included in the Epic of Gilgamesh. ... many parts of this tale are included in the Genesis account ... [which is an] obvious case of plagiarism.

  Baloney!

  You cited a 2000 BC date for the Epic of Gilgamesh. It is more often dated even earlier, 2200 BC. Moses is believed to have written Genesis in about 1500 BC. However, the fact that he wrote his account after the Gilgamesh epic was written in no way indicates plagiarism. The Bible and recent tree ring studies both date Noah's flood to 2350 BC. It is believed that Moses recorded the story of Noah, as it had been preserved by the Jewish people who were Noah's direct descendants. Thus their story of Noah, which they may have preserved in both oral and written forms, would have included eyewitness testimony. As such, the story of Noah's flood which Moses recorded in Genesis, though written after the Gilgamesh story, can be viewed as being both an older and a more accurate account of the very large Mesopotamian flood which many scientists now tell us occurred in about 2350 BC, the same date Bible chronology indicates Noah's flood occurred.

  http://space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/comet_bronzeage_011113-1.html
• 

  Will Power

  Moses was the only writer of Genesis?
  Why different accounts then?
  One written, one oral?
• 

  Thirdson

  There are two stories of the flood in the Bible. This is the link to the two accounts as presented in the New World translation.

  { http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=20855&site=3

  Thirdson