Witnesses left five minutes ago. Vented about Nazi war criminal and Selma and Steve

by Band on the Run 14 Replies latest jw friends

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I was outraged by Selma and Steve and the quote from a Nuremberg convicted Nazi theologian. This man was a key Nazi and his theology fueled National Socialism. There was no way to get in touch with the GB or Writing Department. I had to vent to Witnesses b/c I was so angry I was afraid I would punch my fist into my fiberboard walls.

    Part of me felt bad b/c I realize they have no power over anything. They did not deny the Nazi quote or Selma and Steve. It was news to them. They pretended they never heard of Selma and Steve. They said they are happy with the teachings. B/c they were women, I asked how as women they could sit through Selma and Steve. The story and the Nazi quote have little to do with core Witness doctrine. I can understand a woman not wanting to say anything during the Wt study but how about approaching an elder behind the scenes.

    When they told me how they study their Bible, I exploded. As soon as I offered to show them my extensive (for a lay person) Bible collection with commentaries, they felt as tho I was a demon incarnate. They refused to even glance in the direction of my bookcase. I told them the truth scared the living daylights out of them. I strongly suggested they read the Bible without any apostate or Wt literature.

    I wish I were able to stay calmer. It is very hard to find any common ground with such ignorant people. They kept fishing for an admission that I read apostate literature. Law school taught me to evasive. Of course, I knew I would become upset.

    The last time I argued with Witnesses I was in my twenties and had just finished a college NT class. My siblings were present and they were so impressed at how I disputed the Witnesses. I felt fine. Later that night, the whole family was awakened to my screams from a bad dream. They kept orienting me to the present. I cried uncontrollably for forty-five minutes. This was pre-1975. The Witness threatened me with 1975, which was supposed to be a secret at the time. I told her I would call Bethel and she could explain the 1975 comment to an official. She was terrified!

    So I did something reckless today. Sometimes I feel if more normal people called them on errors such as Nazis and domestic violence, the writing dept. would not be so casual. Wasn't Selma and Steve studied only a few weeks ago? They never heard of it.

    I am hoping I will not have a fit tonight. My rage scares me. I truly believe that they believe that the King James Version and academic works are actually physically possessed by demons. Yet the writing department can do research. If they even think of doing the same, Jehover will strike them dead.

    Part of it reminds me of political discussions here. Obama has not done things and done things that honorable people can disagree with. Progressives feel betrayed. There is an extensive record at a host of reputable sites. When someone just posts vitriol, what can anyone say in return. They just hate. And Dems do likewise.

  • 00DAD

    Nice rant BOTR. JWs don't want to know the truth. They can't HANDLE the truth!

    Can you please clue me in about the NAZI quote?



  • wasblind


    I see only two possiblilities based on their denial

    1) They flat out lied or

    2) Or it could be they, zone out durin' the meetin's, not really interested in this cult

    That's what happens when love for Jehovah is forced, and not out of freewill

  • mind blown
  • Chariklo

    Band, sounds like you did a very good job. But I have two questions.

    1. Were these just random JW's at the door?

    2. What is this Nazi quote? I feel as though I'm either very thick or I've somehow missed something.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I thought there would be an email address for Bethel. No way. Frankly, I wasn't so upset that I was going to write several drafts of a letter, print it on good quality paper, and mail it snail mail. I was wrong. They did nothing but not question. After all my experience, I just fail to understand how out of culture they are. Clearly, Witnesses believe domestic abuse is peachy keen.

    There are at least two threads that discuss the Nazi quote. I wrote down the details on a scrap of paper. In order to bolster a certain interpretation of scripture, they quote a German theologian. His name is the main name on a reference book still in use. Time moves on, though, and his work is only a small fragment of the whole reference. The Wt said "one scholar" without giving his name. A few people thought that his academic work should be judged separately from his Nazi career. Of course, there was no footnote disclosing that this scholar was convicted at the Nuremberg Tribunal.

    It triggered several thoughts for me. First, why even bother to mention his work, given his baggage. He is not a JW so why does he count at all. The point was trivial. Selma and steve were unnecessary to the main point of the WT article. European translations changed the story. Many believed that it was b/c Europeans are serious about stopping domestic violence. There is a clear nexus between this Nazi's academic work and his Nuremberg conviction. Important Nazis were tried at Nuremberg. Sgt. Schultz, for example, would never have been tried at Nuremberg. He lent his academic status to the cause of National Socialism at an early date. His work provided important underpinning for Nazi views of Jews. Contrast this with a true German theologian, Dietrich Boenhoffer. Bonehoffer left Germany to teach at Union Theological. His family had immense status with upper class Germans and, more importantly, the professional German military. Knowing the risk, he deliberately left the sanctuary of New York and the academic environment of Union to take part in a plot to assassinate HItler.

    I met colleagues of his during college. They knew he would face a martyr's death. His German credentials were so impressive that Germans would not view him as an Allied agent but a true German, ridding the nation of Hitler. He was executed when the plot failed.

    People googled the quote and the author was clear.

    Again, if these quotes and stories were essential JW doctrine, I would not be enraged. Jesus would have been sent to the gas chambers at Auschwitz.

    It is time I grow up about the Witnesses. Sgt. Schultz came today to my door. I started out being so civil and admitted my beef was with the GB and writing dept and not them. Knowledge is so important to me. When they left, I viewed my apt through my teenage Witness eyes. The whole place is a Beatles shrine. Dylan, too. The books I have are so precious to me. My music is Beatles, WHO, Dylan and Bach and Beethoven church music.

    Once I lost my cool and saw their fear of even glancing in the direction of harmless books, I wanted to scream, "Yes. I have oral sex with demons and adore it. Demons are so much better skilled than angels." I stopped myself b/c I feel that I was blessed to be exposed to so much and that brings responsibility with it. Also, if anyone screamed that at me in field service, I would need ER treatment.

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    I think what is sad in this whole story is the 'dubs left with little, except that u are demon possesed. Yes I know it's just a bible, and for years the dubs used the KJ or American standard, but look at their fear of a bible. I've stopped reasoning with them because they are just so indoctrinated. They will deny their own literature, or feign ignorance. It's just too frustrating to make the effort. Now if a dub asks me something that shows they have opned their mind a little, well then I'll answer that

  • BreathoftheIndianNose

    I still don't know who Selma and Steve are? Links to stories? Articles?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Just search for Selma and Steve. There were many threads. Cedars wrote an excellent blog. If I recall correctly, Selma and Steve were an illustrative couple. Sort of like Andre. I believe Selma studied with a female Witness. Steve is very abusive and beats Selma. Selma confides in the Witness. Rather than telling her to dial 911 and that beating anyone is a crime, the female Witness asks her if she is acting in a Christian manner towards Steve. Selma confesses she does not b/c Steve has hurt her so badly for so many years. Well, (and this part made me furious), you need to be Christian. Selma accepts her beatings and the emotional abuse. time proves she was right in becoming Steve's punching bag. Seventeen years after the Witness imparts the wisdom to accept the beatings, Steve becomes a Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't recall whether there was any mention of Steve beating her after becoming a Witness.

    This story was not necessary for any Witness point. It was extraneous. The women looked at me as though I were a Klingnon when I recounted Selma and Steve. Their faces were very clear and they even voiced as much: women deserve beatings. Also, (and this had me ready to call Bellevue for an admission) the WT stays out of marriages. I lost it and said, "Oh, oral sex is staying out of marriages. Having one spouse rat another spouse." They downplayed the doctrine, calling it scriptural. I emphatically said the WT doesn't mention it much now but it was out of control. Neither Jesus nor Paul nor any apostle even mentioned oral sex. It was a bit funny b/c I raised my voice on "oral sex" b/c I was so outraged that they could say to my face that the WT does not get involved in marriages. They recoiled.

    If Nazi worship was central to WT doctrine or if domestic abuse was central I could understand it. They are so emotionally sick (the writing dept and GB, not rank and file). Finally, they told me the address at Bethel is printed on all publications. I told them I was in the bldg before they were born. Call me old-fashioned but endorsing a key Nazi war criminal and suggesting women take beatings to convert their husbands to the Witnesses is outrageous to me. Why go places that expose you to ridicule and outrage when you don't need to do so. I fail to see the logic. There has to be a pay off that I can't comprehend.

    I'm sorry about not refering the Nazi or Selma and Steve. Hey- what is the name of the character in the Marlon Brando/Karl Malden movie-A Streetcar Named Desire?

    So do I write several drafts and prepare a Word document that will end up in the trash bin. They have very sensitive antennae for apostates. I hated them long before I ever saw the Internet. I never disputed any doctrine with them. It was limited to the Nazi and Selma and Steve.

  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises

    How does a man being a Nazi negate his theological knowledge?

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