For me, it was when they kicked out Ray Franz and Ed Dunlap

by oppostate 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • oppostate

    For me, it was when they kicked out Ray Franz and Ed Dunlap.

    I knew about the reform movement they started through Ed's brother - and stupidly believed it could work.

    The clouds were truly parted and I could see it for what it was when they were ejected for nothing but trying to ask for biblical reform.

    Hi James, please give some details about this. I've read both CoC and ISoCF by Ray and listened to Ed's tapes on his experice through the JC, but don't remember there being a "reform movement" per se. I know a lot of the Spanish brothers were questioned, but did they actually discover a "reform movement". There was one snitch who stretched and stretched the truth of what was going on and it's intent from what I've gathered.

    An elder who was in Bethel at the time told me they were having separate "bookstudies" in people's dorm rooms at Bethel. Is this what you mean by there being a reform movement.

    Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment. There were indeed brothers who were trying to approach the Bible through personal study and sharing with others, but no definite movement was formed, I thought. Although, that's exactly what the rest of the Governing Body seems to have been worried about.

    Coming on the heels of the WT Presidency losing a lot of it's muscle, maybe the Governing Body thought some more "reforms" would decrease their new found power.

    But I'm definitely interested in what details you can share about this time of upheaval at HQ.

    With best regards,


  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    Wasn't Randy in the middle of that?

  • illoowy

    Supposedly, as the rumor went, at that time a whole Spanish speaking congregation partook of the emblems when Ray Franz gave the talk. This was never the case but the rumor wouldn't die.

    Kuilian and Sanchez's were the ones under a lot of pressure to confess and turn more people in. You can listen to their experience online too. I'll post the link when I get a chance to find it again.

  • CaptainSchmideo

    I too, have questions, James. I was in Marion's congregation when all of this happened, but was too young to be "in the loop". I only knew what I was told by the adults.

    Reading your sentence, it is phrased in such a way that it sounds like Ray and Ed started the reform through Ed's brother. That was confusing at first, until I realized you really mean you learned about the reform as told to you by Marion.

    All I can tell you about those days is that a man I regarded as fondly as if he were my own Grandfather was suddenly declared "persona non grata" and was fled from in public places like grocery stores. I wish I had taken the chance to say how much he meant to me before it was too late. I thought Marion was one of the more interesting speakers in the Hall, certainly a better elder than fat-cats like Glen Abbott. It was a different world once Marion and people like him were chased from the organization...

  • illoowy

    Here's the link to Cris and Norma Sanchez, and Ed Dunlap's experiences during the inquisitions at Bethel back in the late 1970's and early 1980's.

    Poster Jeremy C had started a thread about Ed.

  • james_woods

    I will post more in the morning - but it was not a splinter movement or an attempt at a rebellion.

    I knew both Ray and Ed (Marion too) to be reformers. They believed that by impressing the GB on solid scriptural principles, they could bring about a reform from within. As I said, it was not an attempt to draw away people and get them out of the witness organization.

    Marion and I debated it over the space of at least a year.

    Like I said, I will post a longer history of it (as I remember it) sometime tomorrow when I am fresh.

    But no - there was no attempt at a formal rebellion - just an attempt to reform certain teachings.

  • oppostate

    Hi James,

    Thanks for explaining a bit about the reforms that they wanted to make.

    One would think that indeed the GB would be open to "solid scriptural principles" and want to make the WT religion well founded on what the Bible teaches. But of course we now know better.

    If you would please tell about your experiences and what you remember those times being like. There were so many rumors, and still are about Ray and Ed.

    Thanks for being willing to share your recollections. I'm thinking there are quite a few here on JWN that would like to read more about this too.

    With best regards always,


  • james_woods

    I will do so - remember that this is just my second hand recollections of the Dunlap brothers. I knew Ray Franz only peripherally in those days.

    Just to give a hint - the book Ed Dunlap wrote on the NT book James was really part of that effort they made.

    It was an effort to return to a simpler interpretation of the bible. They wanted to eliminate all the weird chronology and especially the separation of the "great crowd" from the full gospel new covenant.

    Like I said, will put something together this weekend - right now I am caught up in a little party with the family.

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    interesting the contrast between the GB, and the faithful persons of old. What did that Josiah guy do when he found the book of law and realized they had fallen short of it.......

    And the GB just throws u out

  • garyneal


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