Will the IRS Investigate the Watchtower Society?

by ABibleStudent 44 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    You are interpreting the First Amendment without any clue as to why it was enacted and how courts interpret it. Language only gets you so far. You need to know the history behind its enactment. Basically, Americans were British subjects traumatized by the religious wars in Europe that waged forever. As English subjects, they knew the bloodbath of the estabishment of the English Church and even the battles towards the Catholic spectrum of the Church of England vs. the Puritan spectrum. King Charles I was beheaded. England had no formal king for a period. A dictator ruled.

    The problem was compounded by the fact that America was largely settled by dissidents from the Church of England. They did not seek freedom from religion as much as imposition of their own brand of religion as the legal, permissible one. English Presbyterians could not marry English B aptists. Religion influenced everything. Politcal power was exercised through religion. Unable to impose their particular view, a consensus grew not to establish any religion. You may want to read James Madison's writings or the wikipedia article.

    In terms of petitions, I worked in the Senate. Petitions don't carry much clout. Personal letters tend to do so. It does not make much energy to sign a petition. Personal letters work much better. All petitions prove is the marketing behind the petition. My office tended to just throw them in the trash can.

    You have no legitimacy to impose your view of dangerous on the American public. If they are dangerous, they probably engage in criminal activities. Criminal laws imposed on everyone with no legislative history of an attempt to persecute a particular religion have always been upheld. So the criminal law stands as a barrier to dangerousness. Dangerousness of content is protected absolutely the federal const'n. As I wrote, this is my area of expertise. Conservative and progressive justices agree completely with what I wrote.

    One of the main reasons tax exemption is allowed for religions is that government had a radically different mission in American life at the founding. Government, particularly the federal govt, was very limited. Changes in technology, economics, public values have transformed American life. The New Deal was the prime mover of this trend. In colonial times, charity and taking care of those who cannot care for themselves was viewed as a Christian duty. Only churches provided orphanages and hospitals. Americans need some social safety net. The Founders would be shocked by govt. funded orphanes and hospitals. With the government entering the field, however, there is much less rationale for religious tax exemption.

    Also, the Founders did not define Establishment in the First Amendment. It was a matter of controversay. The Const'n defines our values. It can't be detailed as legislation. When in doubt or unable to reach a consensus, vagueness allows both sides to claim a win. We view the Establishment Clause as so essential today. When it was enacted, not much comment or legal debate ensued. The first legal case under the Establishment Clause did not come before the Supreme Court until around the Civil War. One hundred years with no litigation makes one wonder.

    Today's cases are a motley crue. They are controversial. The Court is split with no clear direction so that people can conform their lives to the law. What is agreed is that we will not have any Church of England religion in America. Unfortunately, the Court has never been as clear as the language of the Clause.

  • ABibleStudent
    ABibleStudent
    Band on the Run - You are interpreting the First Amendment without any clue as to why it was enacted and how courts interpret it.

    Hi Band on the Run, My interpretations may disagree with your's and other peoples', but at least I do not make uninformed statements. Instead of writing that [I'm] interpreting the First Amendment without any clue as to why it is enacted and how the courts interpret it, why not ask me what I have read or done? Have you read the White House petition at www.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/protect-americans-dangerous-cults-modify-usc-title-26-§-501-tax-exemptions-requirements/ZHpbvHfx or http://wh.gov/Er4 , or read the thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/politics/225023/1/URGENT-Please-Sign-White-House-Petition-to-Protect-Americans-from-Dangerous-Cults-Modify-USC-Title-26-c2a7-501-Tax-Exemption-Requirements ?

    You did bring up an interesting point that it took almost 100 years to challenge the Religious Free Excercise Clause of the Constitution. I wonder if there is a correlation between enactment of Income Tax laws around the start of the 20 th Century and more 1 st Amendment challenges?

    In the last 6 months I have read the following Supreme Court Decisions and writings of John Adams:

    In the last 8 months I have written emails and letters to the following Senators, Representatives, and Organizations:

    • Senator Harry Reid
    • Senator Dianne Feinstein
    • Senator Barbara Boxer
    • Representative Elton Gallegly
    • Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Timothy Franz Geithner
    • American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) Foundation, National Executive Director: Anthony D. Romero

    • Americans United - Ayesha N. Khan, Barry Lynn, Maggie Garrett, and Ian Smith

    • Harvard Law School - Noah Feldman and Tyler Giannin

    • Yale Law School - Akhil Reed Amar, Anthony T. Kronman, Bruce Ackerman, Drew S. Days III, Jack M. Balkin, Jaclyn Neo, Kenneth Townsend, James Forman Jr, Alec Stone Sweet, Tom R. Tyler, Howard V. Zonana, John G. Simon, Robert C. Post, Paul Gewirtz, Paul W. Kahn, and William Eskridge, Jr.

    • Stanford Law School - David Freeman Engstrom, Janet Cooper Alexander, Jenny S. Martinez, and Paul Brest

    Only 6 individuals have responded so far. Ian Smith wrote to me about Americans United’s opinion that legally challenging the Constitutionality of USC Title 26 § 501(c)(3) tax exempt status for religious organizations would fail, but has not responded about whether American United would lobby politicians about revising USC Title 26 § 501(c)(3). Two representatives from the IRS responded that the IRS had received my compliants. Two lawyers from Yale and Harvard wrote back that my Constitutional clinic and debate proposals were interesting. Senator Harry Reid's office has not responded to my reply to their response of revising USC Title 26 § 501(c)(3).

    I have been accused of tilting at windmills, but hopefully I live a balanced life where I have fun spending time with friends, dancing, playing tennis, riding bicycles, and caring enough about other people to do something to help them awaken from or overcome a dangerous cult.

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

    Robert

  • 144001
    144001
    I do believe that if I do nothing then nothing will change.

    I hate to be a pessimist, but nothing is going to change with respect to the Watchtower's tax exemption as a religion, notwithstanding all of your efforts.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I repeat that you do not seem to have the training to fully understand these court cases and the history behind them. You are entitled to your views, of course. Chastising us for not reading your petition is not a fruitful way to proceed, IMO. As I stated, I have performed professional political activism. I personally don't know whether I support tax exemption. My concern is that it is far more dangerous for the government to be intrusive and administer taxation than the tax exemption. Particularly in economic times such as the present, I am annoyed that some, but not all groups, are not pulling their weight in society. It is such a steep slippery slope to govt. endorsing religion. I've logged countless hours studying these decisions, reading law review articles, and many books.

    When I started my research, I thought there was a clear line between separation of church and state. There was once, beginning in the late 1940s. Conservative justices changed that dynamic from separatism to accomodation. Both progressive and conservative justices repeatedly quote the same language to explain their views. It is prob. the most politcal of all the courts cases. The players are so predictable. A swing vote determines the outcome. Most Establishment Clause cases do not directly address taxation but funding. I am very distressed by the expansion of funding to content neutral social welfare faith based programs that are a crucial part of church mission.

    Society needs people to stake out bold ideas. It also needs consensus builders. I was more distressed by your observation that we are still WT brainwashed if we don't join your bandwagon than your actual position. When once is emotionally affected, it is all too easy for us to read what we want to read. This field has been surprising to me. The consensus is clearly moving to more accomodation of religion, not less. There was some hope that a Democratic president might reverse this trend. Obama believes in funding faith-based programs even more than George W. Bush did. This shocked many commentators. He actually strengthened the program and increased funding.

    So maybe it is good that you are complaining.

  • ABibleStudent
    ABibleStudent

    144001 - I hate to be a pessimist, but nothing is going to change with respect to the Watchtower's tax exemption as a religion, notwithstanding all of your efforts.

    Hi 144001, based on JWN members' opinions expressed in this (and other) threads you are probably more of a prophet than the GB.

    Band on the Run - Chastising us for not reading your petition is not a fruitful way to proceed, IMO. As I stated, I have performed professional political activism. . . .

    . . . I was more distressed by your observation that we are still WT brainwashed if we don't join your bandwagon than your actual position. . . .

    Hi Band on the Run, I am a little confused. When or how did I chastise you for not reading my petition? I do remember asking you if you read it because I was confused about what you wrote about the petition. How does writing that I fell into a mind-trap and observations about a person who I know imply that you are brain-washed. If you feel that I chastised or offended you, I apologize for making you feel that way.

    I have had to grow a thick-skin myself on JWN because of what some people write to me personally. I constantly remind myself not to take things too personally because JWN is an on-line forum. There is a lot more to good communication than just writing.

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

    Robert

  • Sic Semper Tyrannis
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

    This is what you would call intellectual intimidation. Offer up several uncomfirmable "facts" such as having advanced degrees, working for the Senate, and being a self-proclaimed expert in several fields, and hopefully people are bullied into submission because of these seemingly substansive credentials. In my experience, having people list what is obviously their own personal opinion backed up only by their resume usually means that they're not reliable sources for information. Robert - ignore it. Refuse to be bullied by someone conveniently hiding behind the cloak of online anonymity.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    This is not my personal opinion. Ask any lawyer or politcal scientist. I am proud of my credentials. Unlike others, I have put countless hours into this subject. My expertise is limited. Const'l law, civil rights (overlap) and some antitrust. My Witness background was the very reason I went to law school. I needed to learn more about religion and government. My mother was expelled from high school at fourteen b/c of flag salute. She would cry about it as an adult. It changed the outcome of her life. This was my motivation.

    Objective facts do exist. As I've stated, both sides, both separationists and accomodationsts, would agree with my synopsis. It is NOT my unique view.

    Besides very hard work, I was fortunate/lucky(?) to be able to go to school on full scholarships. Not everyone is able to have the chances I had. I stood out among my law school classmates for the variety of my experience. Facts do exist. I am very conscious of viewpoint discrimination. Unlike others, I always state "my opinion" or "I feel." My feelings about tax exempt status are feelings. My synopsis of const'l law is hard fact. I included no shadings of the law.

    I don't post about medicine, don't ever go into detail about law subjects. When I am an expert, I am frank to say that I am an expert. I may no little about most things in this world. I am not a James Joyce or Proust scholar, nor am I a Shakesperian expert. Opera is not a skill. There is so much knowledge that I lack. I do know this area very well. If you don't like the commentary,, don't read it. I have dumbed my self down for the Witnesses too much. If anything it flows into other areas of my life. So I am proud that do know this.

  • Sic Semper Tyrannis
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

    Even if you have the claimed credentials, it doesn't mean you are right. I have the same level of education that you do, but I feel no need to constantly recite my resume and credentials to give myself added importance. It's pretentious to constantly belabor the point that you have a law degree and for some reason relating to that, you know what you are talking about and everyone else who expresses a contrary viewpoint is wrong. Ask any lawyer and political scientist? I do all the time for various reasons. And I get several different answers. You really need to get over yourself and your self-absorption over your qualifications. There are thousands of attorneys in this country. You are but one of many. I salute you for pursuing higher education, but don't think for a second that I'm going to buy into what you are saying because of what your educational background is. You can leave that part out. Try giving us an argument that is completely disconnected from what you claim are your qualifications, and we can all judge for ourselves whether your words have merit. If you don't like the responses to your statements, then feel free to ignore them. It works both ways.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    No, this is not variable. The core is crystal clear and not open to much interpretation. The lines drawn around it are sketchy and the Court has not been consistent. It is prob. the worse area of Supreme Court jurisprudence. There are fundamental facts.

    So you have the same level of education. Maybe you can tell me what you learned in Const'l Law. Don't negate my countless hours of work.

    If you don't like my education, don't read me. Again, I will not dumb down for you or anyone here. There is no need to do so. I am impressed by the learning of so many former Witnesses here. I've learned so much from reading posts here.

    Have your opinion but don't expect to it be valid in the legal or politcal area. I enjoy when people offer their perspectives from the social sciences and other areas. Unlike you, I only know my particular area well. Other concerns are hobbies. It sheds much light and gives me new perspective.

    My education has not included as much Bible and Christianity based study as others here. I would hate them to say "I disagree." I adore the "I disagree because........."

    If anyone tells you otherwise about this material, they are very mistaken. I am not creative as I would like. Mostly, I just repeat what more expert people relate. Otherwise, I'd be a prof at Harvard or Yale Law.

  • ABibleStudent
    ABibleStudent
    Sic Semper Tyrannis - Robert - ignore it. Refuse to be bullied by someone conveniently hiding behind the cloak of online anonymity.

    Hi Sic Semper Tyrannis, Thanks for your support. I won't let anyone bully me. Please build bridges instead of walls with Band on the Run.

    Unfortunately, Band on the Run is right about building consensus. Sometimes I just get tired restating what I feel is obvious to me, instead of chosing my words more carefully. Building consensus is a lot harder than using intimidation and coercion like the WTBTS does to get JWs to do what its leaders want.

    Band on the Run - Society needs people to stake out bold ideas. It also needs consensus builders. I was more distressed by your observation that we are still WT brainwashed if we don't join your bandwagon than your actual position.

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

    Robert

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